Dawn, Gods will is everywhere. Its not always up to you to control everything that happens. Just try to relax, and let go of some of your intense anger, and I promiss you will feel better. Leave these problems to God.
Dawn, like you, I’m a huge fan of the death penalty. But then, I read John Grisham’s Innocent Man. Please read it. It’s a story about a mistaken conviction. See, like you, I assumed that people who were given the death penalty earned it, fair and square, and that competent legal counsel was ALWAYS a part of the process. Turns out, that’s not the case. Here in Atlanta, our legal defense fund is decimated by the expense of preparing an adequate defense for Brian Nichols who, two years ago, went on a rampage in a Fulton County Courthouse, shooting and killing a judge, his court reporter, a guard, and offsite, a few hours later, a Federal agent. The victims’ families won’t accept a plea deal, which has been offered. The families want death, and Nichols won’t plea with the death penalty still on the table. So, our state has spent millions and the case is in limbo because of fear of inadequate financing.
It’s a complicated issue and the answers aren’t always easy nor predictable. Dawn, I urge you to read Innocent Man – IF you can do so with an open mind. Prison isn’t everything it’s cracked up to be, either. Like you, I wish there was a way to permanently obliterate the scum from our society, and I sure don’t mind a little “caught in the act” vigilantism from time to time (recent case in Texas comes to mind). The thing is, you’re sounding exceptionally strident, and I hope I can gently suggest you learn about what happens when things go wrong. The Innocence Project is another eye-opener. I’m just saying that while we can seek justice, we have to remember the human error component that can interfere with that goal.
What a horrible situation! I can relate to the victims’ families refusing to accept a plea. What kind of person/attorney represents someone like Nichols? Egads. Poor soul must not have had a choice.
Do you know if Nichols is being housed with the general population? Maybe they could give the families what they want, if you know what I’m saying?
As for the “God’s will” argument… that doesn’t hold water for everyone. Not all of us subscribe to what the Bible says. Therefore it does not (or at least should not) apply. It is probably frustrating being of a “minority” faith. Seems like a lot of people are content to assume every American is Christian.
A point of clarification here: at no time did Jesus ever speak about outlawing Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment was an accepted part of his Fathers rules governing his Chosen People here on earth and it is His Will that He judge them when they reach his gates for entrance to Heaven or relegation to Hell. When Jesus talked about rejoycing in repetance, he was referring to their possible entrance into His Fathers Kingdom,not their continued life on earth.
Also, does anyone remember that Jesus was crucified. THAT’S capital punishment. Also if you live by the sword, you die by it. Capital punishment has been around for AGES. I understand Dawn’s anger and state by state the punishment does not fit the crime but believe me, in this life or the one to come, that person pays eventually. If they accept Christ before execution (does anyone remember Ms. Tucker that thought because she accepted Christ, Bush would halt her execution?), they still have to abide by man’s law and if death is the penalty then they are executed and may have a place in heaven (hopefully). You still have to go one way or the other.
KLS,
No, I personally do not assume that everyone is a Christian or whatever but being one myself, if there are some of us who what to give a religious take then fine, we are allowed that. I’m like Mary B., I also believe in the death penalty and wish it was used a little more often as a deterrent.
Grisham is an exceptional writer, and I have read it. And I am familiar with Project Innocence. They use DNA. The same DNA testing that they now use to prove guilt.
Adaquate defense is a largely ambiguous term these days. IF they can prove ‘mental duress’ it can fly. To me, that’s a load. I don’t care if their IQ is 50 or 150- killing someone should mean they die, too. If they ‘didn’t understand’ what they did the first time, odds are they won’t understand it a second, third, or fourth time, either. We just had an eight year old raped, beaten and left in a dumpster to die by a ‘mentally challenged’ 19 year old that has used his low IQ to get out of molestation and rape charges before. IF they had put a stop to him that 8 year old would still be a happy normal child. Instead her life was traded for his freedom. That’s how I see it.
If anyone here or someone they loved had been the victim of a violent crime by a repeat offender, they would most likely understand my position.
Prison has been proven to not be a viable deterrent. If it were, there wouldn’t BE so many repeat offenders.
And, BTW- we also had a man rob a store in Miami just so he could go to jail so he could get chemo for the cancer that would kill him because he couldn’t afford treatment. He had put in 40 years of honest work and done everything he was ‘supposed to’. HE should get treatment before the prisoners without having to become one. But he’ll do 7 years and most likely survive the cancer.
“Where do I come off with that statement?” As in “how dare I”?
You don’t think it would be frustrating to grow up in the south as a Buddhist? Or even Jewish? I happen to know two people who have done just that and they’ve both expressed frustration as being mistaken for Christians on multiple occasions.
Does that explain “where I come off” better?
My sincere apologies if I’m mistaken in confusing you for being confrontational, but your phrasing seems more like bait than an actual question.
“Prison has been proven to not be a viable deterrent. If it were, there wouldn’t BE so many repeat offenders.”…Dawn, I am not so sure we actually EXPECT prison to be a deterrent but rather as a means for extracting some kind of “repayment” or punishment for a “crime”…but you can expect that execution will certainly be a deterrent for the one executed but not necessarily for anyone else. That is just the plain, awful truth, that neither approach works very well. I am more atheist than anything so leave out the religion if you want to discuss this seriously. I stick by my statement that prison is not a country club by any means, nor do you get “quality” medical care…for example, they don’t drill and fill or do any other remedial dental work in prisons, they merely pull the bad tooth. And the medical professionals are not the high paid people you can find at the Mayo Clinic but rather someone working almost pro bono, older retired doctors and nurses but certainly not Drs. Debakey or Barard. My main complaint is that the death penalty should be seen for what it is, revenge and retribution, which smacks of an emotional response, not a rational method of rectifying the balance of justice. I sympathize with your pain, and am surely shocked by the heinous acts of molesters and murderers; I am not trying to downplay the criminality of these vile people. But I am concerned that our response, taking a life for a life, is no more advanced than it was at the dawn of civilization. In your Bible, Moses brought ten commandments which codified and proscribed several bad behaviors, but these crimes have not stopped because human behavior has not changed, regardless of how many have been executed. Should we not find an approach that is better than the very acts we are trying to reprehend? That is the moral dilemma; but I tried to keep it to a practical approach, that the costs of ligitation far outpace the cost of housing, simply because we have to be extra careful NOT to kill an innocent…they guy who wanted to go to jail to get treated for cancer is not going to get the special treatment that he expects. I doubt highly that any county or state prison administation is going to allow that kind of expenditure. They couldn’t justify it to the tax payers alone, let alone their own budget officer. That is just another awful truth. I just think that anyone who thinks of prison as a country club ought to spend a couple of YEARS behind bars. It is the daily knowing that your freedom is not going to be returned to you that makes prison a tough time. There isn’t one inmate who consciously wants to do time to get 3 hots and a cot. Prison ain’t cheap and it ain’t fun, but is sure is cheaper and is the morally right thing to do, than execute. Let the blood be on your hands and you can answer for it if you ever met god.
You need to check court dockets. The guy that needed chemo didn’t make bail, and got his first chemo treatment before his court hearing.
They have nothing to do but sit around and think of ways to sue the states. Prisons have been federally ordered to provide cable TV, they are required to provide medical treatment. “Inhumane conditions” suits are brought against govt’s on a daily basis in the thousands. They are allowed to marry, have conjugal visits, the list goes on of so called ‘priveleges’ to us that the are handed to them as ‘rights’. Alcatraz was closed due to inhuman conditions. Well, isn’t that what prison is SUPPOSED to be? Leave them there for 60 years and I could be persuaded that execution isn’t better.
I do know people that have done time. For drug related offenses, petty stuff, prison could be a good idea.
And you can accuse me of wanting revenge all you want. My honest opinion is that for every convicted killer, child molester, and rapist that would be executed, their future victims are spared. I truly feel the world is a better place without the likes of Ted Bundy in it. Or Susan Smith, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. And the world would be much better off without Charles Manson. Who still claims that he would kill every man woman and child in his path if he were to escape. There is ALWAYS the chance he might.
And yes, I could sleep very soundly knowing that another murderer is gone for good. For every execution there is at least one future victim that won’t be.
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Dawn, Gods will is everywhere. Its not always up to you to control everything that happens. Just try to relax, and let go of some of your intense anger, and I promiss you will feel better. Leave these problems to God.
Dawn, like you, I’m a huge fan of the death penalty. But then, I read John Grisham’s Innocent Man. Please read it. It’s a story about a mistaken conviction. See, like you, I assumed that people who were given the death penalty earned it, fair and square, and that competent legal counsel was ALWAYS a part of the process. Turns out, that’s not the case. Here in Atlanta, our legal defense fund is decimated by the expense of preparing an adequate defense for Brian Nichols who, two years ago, went on a rampage in a Fulton County Courthouse, shooting and killing a judge, his court reporter, a guard, and offsite, a few hours later, a Federal agent. The victims’ families won’t accept a plea deal, which has been offered. The families want death, and Nichols won’t plea with the death penalty still on the table. So, our state has spent millions and the case is in limbo because of fear of inadequate financing.
It’s a complicated issue and the answers aren’t always easy nor predictable. Dawn, I urge you to read Innocent Man – IF you can do so with an open mind. Prison isn’t everything it’s cracked up to be, either. Like you, I wish there was a way to permanently obliterate the scum from our society, and I sure don’t mind a little “caught in the act” vigilantism from time to time (recent case in Texas comes to mind). The thing is, you’re sounding exceptionally strident, and I hope I can gently suggest you learn about what happens when things go wrong. The Innocence Project is another eye-opener. I’m just saying that while we can seek justice, we have to remember the human error component that can interfere with that goal.
Thanks for the info about that Casual Observer.
What a horrible situation! I can relate to the victims’ families refusing to accept a plea. What kind of person/attorney represents someone like Nichols? Egads. Poor soul must not have had a choice.
Do you know if Nichols is being housed with the general population? Maybe they could give the families what they want, if you know what I’m saying?
As for the “God’s will” argument… that doesn’t hold water for everyone. Not all of us subscribe to what the Bible says. Therefore it does not (or at least should not) apply. It is probably frustrating being of a “minority” faith. Seems like a lot of people are content to assume every American is Christian.
A point of clarification here: at no time did Jesus ever speak about outlawing Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment was an accepted part of his Fathers rules governing his Chosen People here on earth and it is His Will that He judge them when they reach his gates for entrance to Heaven or relegation to Hell. When Jesus talked about rejoycing in repetance, he was referring to their possible entrance into His Fathers Kingdom,not their continued life on earth.
Well spoken, Mr. Jones.
Also, does anyone remember that Jesus was crucified. THAT’S capital punishment. Also if you live by the sword, you die by it. Capital punishment has been around for AGES. I understand Dawn’s anger and state by state the punishment does not fit the crime but believe me, in this life or the one to come, that person pays eventually. If they accept Christ before execution (does anyone remember Ms. Tucker that thought because she accepted Christ, Bush would halt her execution?), they still have to abide by man’s law and if death is the penalty then they are executed and may have a place in heaven (hopefully). You still have to go one way or the other.
KLS,
No, I personally do not assume that everyone is a Christian or whatever but being one myself, if there are some of us who what to give a religious take then fine, we are allowed that. I’m like Mary B., I also believe in the death penalty and wish it was used a little more often as a deterrent.
And no, it is in no way frustrating to be a part of a “minority” faith. Where do you come off with that statement?
Grisham is an exceptional writer, and I have read it. And I am familiar with Project Innocence. They use DNA. The same DNA testing that they now use to prove guilt.
Adaquate defense is a largely ambiguous term these days. IF they can prove ‘mental duress’ it can fly. To me, that’s a load. I don’t care if their IQ is 50 or 150- killing someone should mean they die, too. If they ‘didn’t understand’ what they did the first time, odds are they won’t understand it a second, third, or fourth time, either. We just had an eight year old raped, beaten and left in a dumpster to die by a ‘mentally challenged’ 19 year old that has used his low IQ to get out of molestation and rape charges before. IF they had put a stop to him that 8 year old would still be a happy normal child. Instead her life was traded for his freedom. That’s how I see it.
If anyone here or someone they loved had been the victim of a violent crime by a repeat offender, they would most likely understand my position.
Prison has been proven to not be a viable deterrent. If it were, there wouldn’t BE so many repeat offenders.
And, BTW- we also had a man rob a store in Miami just so he could go to jail so he could get chemo for the cancer that would kill him because he couldn’t afford treatment. He had put in 40 years of honest work and done everything he was ‘supposed to’. HE should get treatment before the prisoners without having to become one. But he’ll do 7 years and most likely survive the cancer.
“Where do I come off with that statement?” As in “how dare I”?
You don’t think it would be frustrating to grow up in the south as a Buddhist? Or even Jewish? I happen to know two people who have done just that and they’ve both expressed frustration as being mistaken for Christians on multiple occasions.
Does that explain “where I come off” better?
My sincere apologies if I’m mistaken in confusing you for being confrontational, but your phrasing seems more like bait than an actual question.
“Prison has been proven to not be a viable deterrent. If it were, there wouldn’t BE so many repeat offenders.”…Dawn, I am not so sure we actually EXPECT prison to be a deterrent but rather as a means for extracting some kind of “repayment” or punishment for a “crime”…but you can expect that execution will certainly be a deterrent for the one executed but not necessarily for anyone else. That is just the plain, awful truth, that neither approach works very well. I am more atheist than anything so leave out the religion if you want to discuss this seriously. I stick by my statement that prison is not a country club by any means, nor do you get “quality” medical care…for example, they don’t drill and fill or do any other remedial dental work in prisons, they merely pull the bad tooth. And the medical professionals are not the high paid people you can find at the Mayo Clinic but rather someone working almost pro bono, older retired doctors and nurses but certainly not Drs. Debakey or Barard. My main complaint is that the death penalty should be seen for what it is, revenge and retribution, which smacks of an emotional response, not a rational method of rectifying the balance of justice. I sympathize with your pain, and am surely shocked by the heinous acts of molesters and murderers; I am not trying to downplay the criminality of these vile people. But I am concerned that our response, taking a life for a life, is no more advanced than it was at the dawn of civilization. In your Bible, Moses brought ten commandments which codified and proscribed several bad behaviors, but these crimes have not stopped because human behavior has not changed, regardless of how many have been executed. Should we not find an approach that is better than the very acts we are trying to reprehend? That is the moral dilemma; but I tried to keep it to a practical approach, that the costs of ligitation far outpace the cost of housing, simply because we have to be extra careful NOT to kill an innocent…they guy who wanted to go to jail to get treated for cancer is not going to get the special treatment that he expects. I doubt highly that any county or state prison administation is going to allow that kind of expenditure. They couldn’t justify it to the tax payers alone, let alone their own budget officer. That is just another awful truth. I just think that anyone who thinks of prison as a country club ought to spend a couple of YEARS behind bars. It is the daily knowing that your freedom is not going to be returned to you that makes prison a tough time. There isn’t one inmate who consciously wants to do time to get 3 hots and a cot. Prison ain’t cheap and it ain’t fun, but is sure is cheaper and is the morally right thing to do, than execute. Let the blood be on your hands and you can answer for it if you ever met god.
You need to check court dockets. The guy that needed chemo didn’t make bail, and got his first chemo treatment before his court hearing.
They have nothing to do but sit around and think of ways to sue the states. Prisons have been federally ordered to provide cable TV, they are required to provide medical treatment. “Inhumane conditions” suits are brought against govt’s on a daily basis in the thousands. They are allowed to marry, have conjugal visits, the list goes on of so called ‘priveleges’ to us that the are handed to them as ‘rights’. Alcatraz was closed due to inhuman conditions. Well, isn’t that what prison is SUPPOSED to be? Leave them there for 60 years and I could be persuaded that execution isn’t better.
I do know people that have done time. For drug related offenses, petty stuff, prison could be a good idea.
And you can accuse me of wanting revenge all you want. My honest opinion is that for every convicted killer, child molester, and rapist that would be executed, their future victims are spared. I truly feel the world is a better place without the likes of Ted Bundy in it. Or Susan Smith, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. And the world would be much better off without Charles Manson. Who still claims that he would kill every man woman and child in his path if he were to escape. There is ALWAYS the chance he might.
And yes, I could sleep very soundly knowing that another murderer is gone for good. For every execution there is at least one future victim that won’t be.