You are the narrow minded ones…Geezer and I are saying let people be free and do as they please and not some neo-conservative controlled brainwashed, narrow minded puppet that cries like a baby to the government every time you can\’t have something you want.
Turn off CNN, MSNBC, etc and learn about what your great government is doing.
Digression: Anyone notice the criminal investigation going on with the God\’s attorney general Gonzales and his testimony have been brushed under the rug, aka cancelled, after the horrific black ops shooting in Virginia. Good old government, government engineered fear, and the governament controlled media.
Since you stated previously that the government\’s main duty is to protect property holders, then do you also feel like people should be \”Free\” to drive like maniacs as long as they don\’t damage property? Should public schools be \”Free\” to teach kids how to play poker games instead of teaching them science and algebra?
How about monopolies? Is that just \”Free\” business? So if I decide to start a monopoly and charge an outrageous fee for a necessity like electricity, then people should just \”take their lumps\” and pay me for it or else go without? Shoot, I guess that works in my favor, but does that make it right?
Is \”Freedom\” license to be a bully who mistreats, harrasses and causes harm everyone in his or her path? Maybe so.
But I don\’t think I want to live in a country where that kind of behavoir is tolerated.
That\’s why I am pro-protection (WITHIN REASON) for both businesses and employees. What\’s wrong with having a policy in place to make sure both sides know they\’re expected to conduct themselves professionally and fairly?
\”Geezer and I are saying let people be free and do as they please…\”
Great, now give me all your money FreeMan because I want it and I do as I please.
I also want your car (if you have one) and your house. I want it now, so give it to me. If you won\’t then I will take it myself, because I do as I please.
The End
Oh, and Geezer, there you go assuming again. Did I ever say I was married? Your comment was stupid. Any guy would be lucky to have an intelligent woman by his side. If you\’re married, does your wife wear the pants in the family?
Crying foul-
Good post. Of course we should be allowed to do whatever we want. Hope you don\’t mind if I borrow your car and go drive like a maniac… ;)
Why don\’t you bring up every hypothetical situation irrelavent to the topic at hand and we can go on with this forever?
If you work for someone else you are there at his pleasure. That\’s as it should be. Forcing employers to manage their businesses according to the dictates of bureaucrats and politicians is a nightmare. Signing off.
you know what\’s unforunate, is that there really is a common middle ground here. Jewell actually has some good points and so does Geezer. But, instead of looking objectively at it, you both have to be catty, and of course, you both have to be right. I believe in protected classes, because I believe in our society, we need it (kudos to Jewel). But Geezer is right in the sense that EVERYONE is at will to fire or quit. And with all of the political correctness going on, it\’s beginning to get ridiculous as to what you can sue for. I think his point about the term \”age discrimination\” was that what group of people aren\’t protected? When does it stop? I have a friend who wants to fire an employee at her company for POOR PERFORMANCE but can\’t because this particular employee is pregnant (insert law suit here). I think Geezer is saying in situations LIKE THAT is where it gets to be too much. So even though this employee has been documented for poor performance, she could still sue based on the grounds she is pregnant, and in today\’s society, probably win. How fair is that???
i can\’t wait for child molesting priests and teachers to become a protected class…then what will you have to say Jewel?
My hypothetical situation regarding monopolies wasn\’t at all irrelevant. I\’m very curious to read what you have to say about how \”Free\” freedom should be.
I sincerely would like to know why you\’re against having a reasonable policy in place to protect both employers and employees by defining professional, fair behavior and instructing them to act in such a manner.
I have tried to see this from your point of view, but I\’m struggling. Perhaps if I knew your definition of \”freedom\” it would make more sense to me. Free is free, but are there any limits at all in your mind, aside from the ownership of property?
The point is that there are certain protected classes RIGHT now. That\’s the way it is… whether or not they should be protected (ie: age) is a different story. So, the matter at hand is that this man who was fired is part of a protected class, correct? He will certainly have to prove the discrimination, which may or may not be difficult for him to do. He should certainly HAVE to prove it. *If* he was fired for just cause, that\’s all the better for Lucent.
\”But Geezer is right in the sense that EVERYONE is at will to fire or quit.\”
That statement is really not true. If you research at-will at wikipedia.org, you will see many exceptions to the at-will employment law.
Now, put yourself in the shoes of a disabled worker, for example. The employee is always on time, polite to customers and does all of their work efficiently and correctly. Mr. Jones, the store manager, get a promotion out of state. Ms. Baker is hired as store manager. She doesn\’t like the disabled employee because he has a learning disability, so she fires him. Doesn\’t seem fair, does it? At the same time, I do think employers should be free to hire and fire whoever they choose. But, it is practices like these that make me ill. I never posted that employers shouldn\’t be able to do so. As you might (or might not) recall I stated:
\”Yes, you should have the right to hire and fire at will without repercussion, but at the same time, to fire a valued employee is not the best business move.\”
So, while I appreciate your post, next time I would appreciate you getting your facts straight first.
As for this comment:
\”i can\’t wait for child molesting priests and teachers to become a protected class…then what will you have to say Jewel?\”
I can\’t even begin to tell you how ridiculous it was of you to type that…
\”Free is free, but are there any limits at all in your mind, aside from the ownership of property?\”
Of course there are limits. They are set by Geezer.
Oops, no wait, they aren\’t… I agree that the government is too into controlling its citizens.
However, where do you draw the line? Should they be able to tell us to use our seatbelts or get a ticket? That we can\’t fire people who are excellent at their jobs because they are Hispanic? That we can\’t leave our kids home alone when they are 3 or else we will go to jail?
Obviously, there is not going to be 100% agreement on almost every issue. But, this man is part of a protected class, like it or not.
And Geezer didn\’t bother to answer my very valid questions, so good luck trying to get him to answer yours. :)
No Jewel…Everyone is at will to fire or quit, but that is when the ADA steps in and says, \”except for these people…\”
you should use a more credible source than the fun and entertaining wikipedia.
and my comment about child molesters was not ridiculous, because at the rate this country is going, it\’s not too far fetched to believe that could happen. I\’m sure one of these days someone will feel sorry for one of those teachers and make a plea for his/her case. if the government can listen to my phone calls, why is this so unbelievable? They have a right to a good life once they have served their time, correct? Why shouldn\’t they be allowed any job they want? They were healed through the system right?
and you included a comment that i didn\’t make. i do have my facts straight. I work in HR. everyone has a right to quit at anytime they want. the whole \”two weeks notice\” is just a formality, and unless stipulated in the company manual (which an employee endorses with his/her signature) is not a law. on the same hand an employer can fire with out notice except for those protected classes. but hey, maybe wikipedia has it right and HRAM has it wrong…
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You are the narrow minded ones…Geezer and I are saying let people be free and do as they please and not some neo-conservative controlled brainwashed, narrow minded puppet that cries like a baby to the government every time you can\’t have something you want.
Turn off CNN, MSNBC, etc and learn about what your great government is doing.
Digression: Anyone notice the criminal investigation going on with the God\’s attorney general Gonzales and his testimony have been brushed under the rug, aka cancelled, after the horrific black ops shooting in Virginia. Good old government, government engineered fear, and the governament controlled media.
Are you saying that the VT shooting was done by the govt?
So \”Free people make their own way…\” okay then.
How \”Free\” do you think people should be?
Since you stated previously that the government\’s main duty is to protect property holders, then do you also feel like people should be \”Free\” to drive like maniacs as long as they don\’t damage property? Should public schools be \”Free\” to teach kids how to play poker games instead of teaching them science and algebra?
How about monopolies? Is that just \”Free\” business? So if I decide to start a monopoly and charge an outrageous fee for a necessity like electricity, then people should just \”take their lumps\” and pay me for it or else go without? Shoot, I guess that works in my favor, but does that make it right?
Is \”Freedom\” license to be a bully who mistreats, harrasses and causes harm everyone in his or her path? Maybe so.
But I don\’t think I want to live in a country where that kind of behavoir is tolerated.
That\’s why I am pro-protection (WITHIN REASON) for both businesses and employees. What\’s wrong with having a policy in place to make sure both sides know they\’re expected to conduct themselves professionally and fairly?
\”Geezer and I are saying let people be free and do as they please…\”
Great, now give me all your money FreeMan because I want it and I do as I please.
I also want your car (if you have one) and your house. I want it now, so give it to me. If you won\’t then I will take it myself, because I do as I please.
The End
Oh, and Geezer, there you go assuming again. Did I ever say I was married? Your comment was stupid. Any guy would be lucky to have an intelligent woman by his side. If you\’re married, does your wife wear the pants in the family?
Crying foul-
Good post. Of course we should be allowed to do whatever we want. Hope you don\’t mind if I borrow your car and go drive like a maniac… ;)
Why don\’t you bring up every hypothetical situation irrelavent to the topic at hand and we can go on with this forever?
If you work for someone else you are there at his pleasure. That\’s as it should be. Forcing employers to manage their businesses according to the dictates of bureaucrats and politicians is a nightmare. Signing off.
you know what\’s unforunate, is that there really is a common middle ground here. Jewell actually has some good points and so does Geezer. But, instead of looking objectively at it, you both have to be catty, and of course, you both have to be right. I believe in protected classes, because I believe in our society, we need it (kudos to Jewel). But Geezer is right in the sense that EVERYONE is at will to fire or quit. And with all of the political correctness going on, it\’s beginning to get ridiculous as to what you can sue for. I think his point about the term \”age discrimination\” was that what group of people aren\’t protected? When does it stop? I have a friend who wants to fire an employee at her company for POOR PERFORMANCE but can\’t because this particular employee is pregnant (insert law suit here). I think Geezer is saying in situations LIKE THAT is where it gets to be too much. So even though this employee has been documented for poor performance, she could still sue based on the grounds she is pregnant, and in today\’s society, probably win. How fair is that???
i can\’t wait for child molesting priests and teachers to become a protected class…then what will you have to say Jewel?
My hypothetical situation regarding monopolies wasn\’t at all irrelevant. I\’m very curious to read what you have to say about how \”Free\” freedom should be.
I sincerely would like to know why you\’re against having a reasonable policy in place to protect both employers and employees by defining professional, fair behavior and instructing them to act in such a manner.
I have tried to see this from your point of view, but I\’m struggling. Perhaps if I knew your definition of \”freedom\” it would make more sense to me. Free is free, but are there any limits at all in your mind, aside from the ownership of property?
Interesting post \”In the middle\”.
The point is that there are certain protected classes RIGHT now. That\’s the way it is… whether or not they should be protected (ie: age) is a different story. So, the matter at hand is that this man who was fired is part of a protected class, correct? He will certainly have to prove the discrimination, which may or may not be difficult for him to do. He should certainly HAVE to prove it. *If* he was fired for just cause, that\’s all the better for Lucent.
\”But Geezer is right in the sense that EVERYONE is at will to fire or quit.\”
That statement is really not true. If you research at-will at wikipedia.org, you will see many exceptions to the at-will employment law.
Now, put yourself in the shoes of a disabled worker, for example. The employee is always on time, polite to customers and does all of their work efficiently and correctly. Mr. Jones, the store manager, get a promotion out of state. Ms. Baker is hired as store manager. She doesn\’t like the disabled employee because he has a learning disability, so she fires him. Doesn\’t seem fair, does it? At the same time, I do think employers should be free to hire and fire whoever they choose. But, it is practices like these that make me ill. I never posted that employers shouldn\’t be able to do so. As you might (or might not) recall I stated:
\”Yes, you should have the right to hire and fire at will without repercussion, but at the same time, to fire a valued employee is not the best business move.\”
So, while I appreciate your post, next time I would appreciate you getting your facts straight first.
As for this comment:
\”i can\’t wait for child molesting priests and teachers to become a protected class…then what will you have to say Jewel?\”
I can\’t even begin to tell you how ridiculous it was of you to type that…
\”Free is free, but are there any limits at all in your mind, aside from the ownership of property?\”
Of course there are limits. They are set by Geezer.
Oops, no wait, they aren\’t… I agree that the government is too into controlling its citizens.
However, where do you draw the line? Should they be able to tell us to use our seatbelts or get a ticket? That we can\’t fire people who are excellent at their jobs because they are Hispanic? That we can\’t leave our kids home alone when they are 3 or else we will go to jail?
Obviously, there is not going to be 100% agreement on almost every issue. But, this man is part of a protected class, like it or not.
And Geezer didn\’t bother to answer my very valid questions, so good luck trying to get him to answer yours. :)
No Jewel…Everyone is at will to fire or quit, but that is when the ADA steps in and says, \”except for these people…\”
you should use a more credible source than the fun and entertaining wikipedia.
and my comment about child molesters was not ridiculous, because at the rate this country is going, it\’s not too far fetched to believe that could happen. I\’m sure one of these days someone will feel sorry for one of those teachers and make a plea for his/her case. if the government can listen to my phone calls, why is this so unbelievable? They have a right to a good life once they have served their time, correct? Why shouldn\’t they be allowed any job they want? They were healed through the system right?
and you included a comment that i didn\’t make. i do have my facts straight. I work in HR. everyone has a right to quit at anytime they want. the whole \”two weeks notice\” is just a formality, and unless stipulated in the company manual (which an employee endorses with his/her signature) is not a law. on the same hand an employer can fire with out notice except for those protected classes. but hey, maybe wikipedia has it right and HRAM has it wrong…