“All I was saying was that those who practice fundamentalist Islam are doing the real thing, those who don’t are nominal Muslims, like the non-maniacal Germans that you reference. You are a poor thinker. You repeat my syllogism as your own and renounce it.”
That’s not all you were saying. You were smearing all Muslims with your interpretation of what Islam is, which happens to coincide with what the worst of the worst believe. That would be like me judging all Christians evil because of the Inquisition, or because of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
I don’t much care which Islam is the “real” Islam, as long as we are tracking down the people who are a danger. If you want to call the dangerous ones the “real” Muslims, you have every right to. But you’re not making the world safer by doing so.
>”I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope).”
The Inquisition cost about 3,000 people over hundreds of years. That’s too many, but it’s more than died on 9/11.
>”Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.”
Well one thing the Rev. Mr. Falwell taught was that the modern nation of “Israel” is prophesied in the Bible. This makes Zionism a default position for his followers, causing much of the hostility Arab Muslims have had for the US since 1948.
“Israel” was also seen as a western outpost by the USSR, so they were able to enlist Arab nations in the region as client states which further exacerbated the problem. Dispensationalist eschatology is as problematic as Muslim eschatology. Neither is true, and their real-world effects have been highly destructive.
It may have been over the top – but I’m not sure if it is completely inaccurate. We hear of cells of Islamic terrorist in America on a regular basis.
Look, to your point, I fully realize that to characterize every member of a society, group, sect, religion or neighborhood based on one or a small group’s actions is stereotyping (I certainly hope my family is not judged by me); but until the Muslims in America publicly, often and loudly denounce these terrorist actions done on behalf of their religion – I’m afraid they are fitting the stereotype.
Chris Rock (not really known as a great philosopher or sociologist) made the comment that if there wasn’t some truth (past or present) in the stereotype, the stereotype wouldn’t exist. His point being for comic effect, but when contemplated – is largely true.
I look at life this way (may sound familiar) – all men (and women) are created equal with equal rights, opportunities, and responsibilities. Your rights end where mine begin; and my responsibility begins where my rights end.
In short we do our best to look out for each other. When you violate that by committing violent acts – you have violated the trust of all mankind and deserve punishment (be that legal or eternal). Within this there is room for forgiveness and redemption – make it right with the people(s) you’ve done wrong and don’t do it again. But even if you repent (in the broad sense of the word, not the Christian sense), you must still face the consequences of your actions – just saying I’m sorry doesn’t make everything better.
>”I have serious problems with Islam, but it’s over the top to accuse the American Muslim community of biding their time.”
A recent Pew Poll discovered, by interviewing 3,500 Muslims in America, that 25% of them favor suicide bombings as revenge for “insulting Islam.” So maybe rather than saying that they’re “biding their time” we should say that they are “waiting for an excuse.”
The percentage who think suicide bombing is acceptable rises for young Muslims. Perhaps this where you came up with your figure, but your statement was misleading.
I’m not defending anyone. These numbers are disturbing enough. But thinking a crime is justified is different from committing or supporting them.
It’s the fourth story on this page. You’re right, the 25% was of a specific age group in the survey, which is still sickening.
~
A Pew Research Center poll released late last month found that, while U.S. Muslims are largely the picture of assimilation, about a quarter of Muslims ages 18 to 29 said the use of suicide bombing against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified, at least on rare occasions.
The finding was described by some as a trouble spot, and even a hair-raising statistic, but many Muslim scholars had another reaction to the Pew report: What did you expect?
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“All I was saying was that those who practice fundamentalist Islam are doing the real thing, those who don’t are nominal Muslims, like the non-maniacal Germans that you reference. You are a poor thinker. You repeat my syllogism as your own and renounce it.”
That’s not all you were saying. You were smearing all Muslims with your interpretation of what Islam is, which happens to coincide with what the worst of the worst believe. That would be like me judging all Christians evil because of the Inquisition, or because of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
I don’t much care which Islam is the “real” Islam, as long as we are tracking down the people who are a danger. If you want to call the dangerous ones the “real” Muslims, you have every right to. But you’re not making the world safer by doing so.
>”I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope).”
The Inquisition cost about 3,000 people over hundreds of years. That’s too many, but it’s more than died on 9/11.
>”Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.”
Well one thing the Rev. Mr. Falwell taught was that the modern nation of “Israel” is prophesied in the Bible. This makes Zionism a default position for his followers, causing much of the hostility Arab Muslims have had for the US since 1948.
“Israel” was also seen as a western outpost by the USSR, so they were able to enlist Arab nations in the region as client states which further exacerbated the problem. Dispensationalist eschatology is as problematic as Muslim eschatology. Neither is true, and their real-world effects have been highly destructive.
It may have been over the top – but I’m not sure if it is completely inaccurate. We hear of cells of Islamic terrorist in America on a regular basis.
Look, to your point, I fully realize that to characterize every member of a society, group, sect, religion or neighborhood based on one or a small group’s actions is stereotyping (I certainly hope my family is not judged by me); but until the Muslims in America publicly, often and loudly denounce these terrorist actions done on behalf of their religion – I’m afraid they are fitting the stereotype.
Chris Rock (not really known as a great philosopher or sociologist) made the comment that if there wasn’t some truth (past or present) in the stereotype, the stereotype wouldn’t exist. His point being for comic effect, but when contemplated – is largely true.
I look at life this way (may sound familiar) – all men (and women) are created equal with equal rights, opportunities, and responsibilities. Your rights end where mine begin; and my responsibility begins where my rights end.
In short we do our best to look out for each other. When you violate that by committing violent acts – you have violated the trust of all mankind and deserve punishment (be that legal or eternal). Within this there is room for forgiveness and redemption – make it right with the people(s) you’ve done wrong and don’t do it again. But even if you repent (in the broad sense of the word, not the Christian sense), you must still face the consequences of your actions – just saying I’m sorry doesn’t make everything better.
Just casual thoughts on a nice Friday.
>”I have serious problems with Islam, but it’s over the top to accuse the American Muslim community of biding their time.”
A recent Pew Poll discovered, by interviewing 3,500 Muslims in America, that 25% of them favor suicide bombings as revenge for “insulting Islam.” So maybe rather than saying that they’re “biding their time” we should say that they are “waiting for an excuse.”
Cliff,
I enjoyed it. Have a great weekend.
I just downloaded the American Muslim report from the Pew web site, and the figures are:
“Suicide bombing can be justified…”
Often: 1%
Sometimes: 7%
Rarely/Never: 83%
Don’t know/No answer: 9%
The percentage who think suicide bombing is acceptable rises for young Muslims. Perhaps this where you came up with your figure, but your statement was misleading.
I’m not defending anyone. These numbers are disturbing enough. But thinking a crime is justified is different from committing or supporting them.
http://jihadwatch.org/
It’s the fourth story on this page. You’re right, the 25% was of a specific age group in the survey, which is still sickening.
~
A Pew Research Center poll released late last month found that, while U.S. Muslims are largely the picture of assimilation, about a quarter of Muslims ages 18 to 29 said the use of suicide bombing against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified, at least on rare occasions.
The finding was described by some as a trouble spot, and even a hair-raising statistic, but many Muslim scholars had another reaction to the Pew report: What did you expect?
This age group will eventually be the leadership.
LOL! See y’all at the next IJ controversy!
TP
Can’t wait!!
PT