Well, in answer to the first question – terrorism rising from hatred or prejudice (race, sex, religion, whatever) is always evil; just don’t claim to be doing it for God or Allah or “The Force” (for you Star Wars fans). But be careful to condemn all terrorism as we Americans use it during time of war also (when necessary to accomplish the task).
Stoning in the Old Testament – eternal separation from God in the new (new meaning of death). We all die – eternal destination is the question.
Context is everything – using one or two verses taken from a passage – as you said – can back up any position. In America’s past it was even used to condone and encourage slavery.
The Law of Moses was to stone adulterers, but Christ said, “Ye without sin, cast the first stone.” Just leave the splinter alone in my eye until you remove the stick from yours.
Track Plotter – don’t misunderstand me, I enjoy this and take nothing personally. Too many people are afraid of honest debate and discussion – I’m glad to find someone who is willing to dialogue.
Oh, and as much as I hate to admit it, I’m positive musslims know the Koran far better than I know the Bible (even though it says to hide its words in my heart), and many cults know how to use parts of the Bible to accomplish their purpose also.
Excellent observation. The problem however is that the Church has never put anyone to death for cursing his parents. Neither is there any instance of it in the Old Testament. The death being spoken of is convenant death,in other words, losing one’s part in the covenant that God made with His people.
On the other hand, we have Muslims running around killing people every day (or trying to) based on the Koranic verses that I cited. No amount of contextualization is going to convince them that these passages are passe’. This is not even to mention those passages in the Koran and Haddith that endorse polygamy and pedophilia.
*”Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matther 5:17
Here we go… Christ fulfilled the moral Law by keeping it entirely, and He fulfilled the ceremonial Law in His death and resurrection.
*”And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Mark 7:9-10
The context is that the Pharisees did not respect their own parents, despite their overweaning concern for SOME of the laws of Moses. “You are all concerned about the Law, but you won’t support your own parents,” is what He was saying. He was not saying that there should be capital punishment for cursing one’s parents, whatever that means.
*”But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
This is from a parable, it is not an endorsement by Christ of summary execution.
*”For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22-23
Well, I’m a little troubled by the moral relativism that terrorism is OK when it’s necessary for us to accomplish the task. Everytime this country embraces the concept that the end justifies the means, innocent people suffer.
Interpretations of scripture are just that-interpretations. I like yours, but not everyone agrees with you.
Abu, over the last two thousand years, many, many people have died at the hands of people who thought they were doing Christ’s work. Thankfully, we in the West have (mostly) moved beyond that. Islam has not made as much progress. The issue is not that our religion is better than theirs; it’s that their religion is pretty much all they have. They and their religion are capable of making the same progress we in the West have made. One of the reasons the West has progressed beyond tribal, sectarian violence is the separation of religion from government. Islamic terrorism would not be as dangerous as it is were it not for the fact that it receives the implicit and explicit support of sharia governments.
We all agree that we in the West face a danger from Islamic terrorism. Sniping at their religious texts tends to escalate matters to the point where we lose track of who we should be tracking down and killing, and instead decide we should just exterminate them all. Which is something many people who post on this comment board believe.
The problem with Islam is Islam. It is not “sniping at their texts” to report what the texts say, and the texts say that they are to kill Christians and Jews who will not convert or submit to Muslim rule. There’s no way to spin that. Muhammad married a six year-old whom he deflowered at nine, and justified it in the Koran so that Muslims are free to take child brides forever. Ayatollah Komeini married a ten year-old when he was twenty-nine.
On what basis do you believe that Muslim country’s can make progress like the West has? There is no reason to believe that from the study of history. Once the Muslim hoards were turned back from conquest at the gates of Vienna, their backward culture began to stagnate because they ran out of artisans to enslave and spoils to send home. It’s a pirate culture, a religion for bandits.
You should read something like Robert Spencer’s, The Truth About Muhammad.
Track Plotter – I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope). Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.
I am a graduate of Liberty University and I’ve been listening people bad-mouth Falwell for years just causes he preached that sin is sin, wrong is wrong and God is God. He’s never preached hate of people, just hate for sinful actions.
As a history lesson, you may remember that Falwell sued Larry Flynt over an ad parody in Penthouse. Well most people think that these guys hate each other. Guess what, they actually became friends. Falwell hated (since he is now dead, I’ll use the past tense) what Flynt does, but never hated the man. What a huge difference.
The Pope that sanctioned the inquisition hated people and groups of people – which is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry – which is ALWAYS wrong, as it states in the Bible.
Be careful what you allow people to lead you to believe about someone else you know nothing about. Falwell passionately believed that we needed, as a country, to return to God – but he never did and never would have promoted or condoned violence to accomplish it.
If muslim truly is a religion of peace – then all the muslims should be in the streets denouncing the actions that are being taken by these “radicals.” They are largely silent – out of fear of persecution themselves – and out of belief in the “mission.”
Agreed, there are nut case extremist representing every race, creed or belief – but they usually self-destruct over time and their cause is lost due to the efforts of the orthodox. These muslims that are attacking and blowing people up don’t seem to be on the fringe of the belief – if so, their actions would begin to wane. They are, in fact, practicing the mainstream – the Muslims in America just know how to play the waiting game.
I’ve got to go now, other things happening in the house I’ve got to take care of, so I can’t finish my thought.
Not being morally relative (at least not trying to be); just stating that the US does commit terrorist-type acts to accomplish military goals to hopefully defeat our enemy and protect our citizens. But ours is generally in response to and an attempt to end a threat – not to sway another country’s or people’s belief (religious, political or otherwise).
Was the atomic bomb justified to end a war? If we hadn’t have dropped it, many thousands (maybe over 1 million) US soldiers would have died in the effort to take Japan (at least according to military historians far smarter than I). Sometimes the end does justify the means (I don’t like it, but it does).
The difference is the underlying purpose of the person/country – safety vs. tyranny.
The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
So those with murder in their hearts and minds are not practicing the true Muslim Faith. Please let’s not paint all Muslims with the same brush as we paint
violent Muslim extremists.
**The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
The problem is, non-Muslims are not innocent. Muslims can lie to Infidels; infidels must never lie to Muslims. Muslims can befriend infidels in order to betray them later as stated in Koran. Muslims can make claim to lands that were never theirs when they become a sizable part of any nation or community. Muslims can kill those who disbelieve, but unbelievers may never kill a Muslim without the vengeance of Hell. Muslims can commit suicide while killing innocent people. Muslims can dance in the streets when celebrating acts of cowardice and suicide. Infidels cannot. Muslims can praise Allah and dance when hurricanes hit the USA, while Infidels empty their pockets and resources and mourn the death of people when a tidal wave hits their people.
As for reading the Koran, see below:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
Funny that Quakers are always more interested in defending anti-Christs than Christians.
Quaker author Jerry Frost recalls that in the 1930’s “the AFSC refused publicly to criticize the Soviet Union because building up cultural and personal contacts seemed the only way open to defuse hostilities.” However, if they refused to criticize the Soviets for fear of losing contacts then it’s obvious who they saw (and continue to see) as their real enemy: the United States of America.
The [Quaker] alliance with Communists would bear much fruit in the American Friends Service Committee’s propaganda. In the 1972 AFSC pamphlet Non-Violence: Not First For Export, author John Bristol explicitly describes the feelings that the AFSC has for the West in general, and America in particular. In a passage forgiving terrorists for their violent ways, Bristol asserts that “terrorism…repeatedly…is used to signify violent action on the part of oppressed peoples in Asia, Africa, Latin America or within the black ghettos of America, as they take up the weapons of violence in a desperate effort to wrest for themselves the freedom and justice denied them by the systems that presently control their lives.” But who exactly is the cause of the ‘system’ terrorists are trying to overthrow? Bristol places the blame squarely at the feet of the West. “What millions of middle-class and other non-poor fail to realize is that they are themselves accomplices each day in meeting [sic.] out inhuman, all-pervading violence upon their fellows.”
You’re using the Koran, written by primitive men centuries ago, and the behvaior of primitive men, to define the behavior of all Muslims today. The same can be done with the Bible.
Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt have made progress. In some cases, not much, but it is there. If you believe Muslim countries are incapable of making progress, then I have to assume you are opposed to the venture in Iraq, since that is the (current) stated goal of our president. Why should we be sacrificing American lives to prop up a government of Shia militias?
You seem to think I’m defending abominable behavior. I’m not. Reading from your book list and learning to fear all Muslims is not going to make us safer.
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Well, in answer to the first question – terrorism rising from hatred or prejudice (race, sex, religion, whatever) is always evil; just don’t claim to be doing it for God or Allah or “The Force” (for you Star Wars fans). But be careful to condemn all terrorism as we Americans use it during time of war also (when necessary to accomplish the task).
Stoning in the Old Testament – eternal separation from God in the new (new meaning of death). We all die – eternal destination is the question.
Context is everything – using one or two verses taken from a passage – as you said – can back up any position. In America’s past it was even used to condone and encourage slavery.
The Law of Moses was to stone adulterers, but Christ said, “Ye without sin, cast the first stone.” Just leave the splinter alone in my eye until you remove the stick from yours.
Track Plotter – don’t misunderstand me, I enjoy this and take nothing personally. Too many people are afraid of honest debate and discussion – I’m glad to find someone who is willing to dialogue.
Oh, and as much as I hate to admit it, I’m positive musslims know the Koran far better than I know the Bible (even though it says to hide its words in my heart), and many cults know how to use parts of the Bible to accomplish their purpose also.
Excellent observation. The problem however is that the Church has never put anyone to death for cursing his parents. Neither is there any instance of it in the Old Testament. The death being spoken of is convenant death,in other words, losing one’s part in the covenant that God made with His people.
On the other hand, we have Muslims running around killing people every day (or trying to) based on the Koranic verses that I cited. No amount of contextualization is going to convince them that these passages are passe’. This is not even to mention those passages in the Koran and Haddith that endorse polygamy and pedophilia.
*”Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matther 5:17
Here we go… Christ fulfilled the moral Law by keeping it entirely, and He fulfilled the ceremonial Law in His death and resurrection.
*”And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Mark 7:9-10
The context is that the Pharisees did not respect their own parents, despite their overweaning concern for SOME of the laws of Moses. “You are all concerned about the Law, but you won’t support your own parents,” is what He was saying. He was not saying that there should be capital punishment for cursing one’s parents, whatever that means.
*”But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Luke 19:27
This is from a parable, it is not an endorsement by Christ of summary execution.
*”For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22-23
Which occurred in AD 70.
Well, I’m a little troubled by the moral relativism that terrorism is OK when it’s necessary for us to accomplish the task. Everytime this country embraces the concept that the end justifies the means, innocent people suffer.
Interpretations of scripture are just that-interpretations. I like yours, but not everyone agrees with you.
Abu, over the last two thousand years, many, many people have died at the hands of people who thought they were doing Christ’s work. Thankfully, we in the West have (mostly) moved beyond that. Islam has not made as much progress. The issue is not that our religion is better than theirs; it’s that their religion is pretty much all they have. They and their religion are capable of making the same progress we in the West have made. One of the reasons the West has progressed beyond tribal, sectarian violence is the separation of religion from government. Islamic terrorism would not be as dangerous as it is were it not for the fact that it receives the implicit and explicit support of sharia governments.
We all agree that we in the West face a danger from Islamic terrorism. Sniping at their religious texts tends to escalate matters to the point where we lose track of who we should be tracking down and killing, and instead decide we should just exterminate them all. Which is something many people who post on this comment board believe.
The problem with Islam is Islam. It is not “sniping at their texts” to report what the texts say, and the texts say that they are to kill Christians and Jews who will not convert or submit to Muslim rule. There’s no way to spin that. Muhammad married a six year-old whom he deflowered at nine, and justified it in the Koran so that Muslims are free to take child brides forever. Ayatollah Komeini married a ten year-old when he was twenty-nine.
On what basis do you believe that Muslim country’s can make progress like the West has? There is no reason to believe that from the study of history. Once the Muslim hoards were turned back from conquest at the gates of Vienna, their backward culture began to stagnate because they ran out of artisans to enslave and spoils to send home. It’s a pirate culture, a religion for bandits.
You should read something like Robert Spencer’s, The Truth About Muhammad.
http://www.jihadwatch.org
Track Plotter – I was enjoying our dialogue, right up until you implicated Jerry Falwell as in some way as bad as the inquisition (sanctioned by the Pope). Especially since you have no ideas what he really believed or taught.
I am a graduate of Liberty University and I’ve been listening people bad-mouth Falwell for years just causes he preached that sin is sin, wrong is wrong and God is God. He’s never preached hate of people, just hate for sinful actions.
As a history lesson, you may remember that Falwell sued Larry Flynt over an ad parody in Penthouse. Well most people think that these guys hate each other. Guess what, they actually became friends. Falwell hated (since he is now dead, I’ll use the past tense) what Flynt does, but never hated the man. What a huge difference.
The Pope that sanctioned the inquisition hated people and groups of people – which is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry – which is ALWAYS wrong, as it states in the Bible.
Be careful what you allow people to lead you to believe about someone else you know nothing about. Falwell passionately believed that we needed, as a country, to return to God – but he never did and never would have promoted or condoned violence to accomplish it.
If muslim truly is a religion of peace – then all the muslims should be in the streets denouncing the actions that are being taken by these “radicals.” They are largely silent – out of fear of persecution themselves – and out of belief in the “mission.”
Agreed, there are nut case extremist representing every race, creed or belief – but they usually self-destruct over time and their cause is lost due to the efforts of the orthodox. These muslims that are attacking and blowing people up don’t seem to be on the fringe of the belief – if so, their actions would begin to wane. They are, in fact, practicing the mainstream – the Muslims in America just know how to play the waiting game.
I’ve got to go now, other things happening in the house I’ve got to take care of, so I can’t finish my thought.
Not being morally relative (at least not trying to be); just stating that the US does commit terrorist-type acts to accomplish military goals to hopefully defeat our enemy and protect our citizens. But ours is generally in response to and an attempt to end a threat – not to sway another country’s or people’s belief (religious, political or otherwise).
Was the atomic bomb justified to end a war? If we hadn’t have dropped it, many thousands (maybe over 1 million) US soldiers would have died in the effort to take Japan (at least according to military historians far smarter than I). Sometimes the end does justify the means (I don’t like it, but it does).
The difference is the underlying purpose of the person/country – safety vs. tyranny.
But – MIGHT NEVER MAKES RIGHT!
The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
So those with murder in their hearts and minds are not practicing the true Muslim Faith. Please let’s not paint all Muslims with the same brush as we paint
violent Muslim extremists.
**The holy Book of Islam, the Quran, says: “If anyone murders an innocent person … it will be as if he had murdered the whole of humanity.”
The problem is, non-Muslims are not innocent. Muslims can lie to Infidels; infidels must never lie to Muslims. Muslims can befriend infidels in order to betray them later as stated in Koran. Muslims can make claim to lands that were never theirs when they become a sizable part of any nation or community. Muslims can kill those who disbelieve, but unbelievers may never kill a Muslim without the vengeance of Hell. Muslims can commit suicide while killing innocent people. Muslims can dance in the streets when celebrating acts of cowardice and suicide. Infidels cannot. Muslims can praise Allah and dance when hurricanes hit the USA, while Infidels empty their pockets and resources and mourn the death of people when a tidal wave hits their people.
As for reading the Koran, see below:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
Funny that Quakers are always more interested in defending anti-Christs than Christians.
Quaker author Jerry Frost recalls that in the 1930’s “the AFSC refused publicly to criticize the Soviet Union because building up cultural and personal contacts seemed the only way open to defuse hostilities.” However, if they refused to criticize the Soviets for fear of losing contacts then it’s obvious who they saw (and continue to see) as their real enemy: the United States of America.
The [Quaker] alliance with Communists would bear much fruit in the American Friends Service Committee’s propaganda. In the 1972 AFSC pamphlet Non-Violence: Not First For Export, author John Bristol explicitly describes the feelings that the AFSC has for the West in general, and America in particular. In a passage forgiving terrorists for their violent ways, Bristol asserts that “terrorism…repeatedly…is used to signify violent action on the part of oppressed peoples in Asia, Africa, Latin America or within the black ghettos of America, as they take up the weapons of violence in a desperate effort to wrest for themselves the freedom and justice denied them by the systems that presently control their lives.” But who exactly is the cause of the ‘system’ terrorists are trying to overthrow? Bristol places the blame squarely at the feet of the West. “What millions of middle-class and other non-poor fail to realize is that they are themselves accomplices each day in meeting [sic.] out inhuman, all-pervading violence upon their fellows.”
You’re using the Koran, written by primitive men centuries ago, and the behvaior of primitive men, to define the behavior of all Muslims today. The same can be done with the Bible.
Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt have made progress. In some cases, not much, but it is there. If you believe Muslim countries are incapable of making progress, then I have to assume you are opposed to the venture in Iraq, since that is the (current) stated goal of our president. Why should we be sacrificing American lives to prop up a government of Shia militias?
You seem to think I’m defending abominable behavior. I’m not. Reading from your book list and learning to fear all Muslims is not going to make us safer.