Keep thinking what you’re thinking and watch the decline. Why do you think the stock market is going down? Keep punishing businesses and watch your 401k evaporate. Have fun!
It appears some very relevant issues are being overlooked due to an obvious and intense desire by some to really punish Exxon. Based on many of the posts, one could easily infer that Exxon was simply permitted to haul the Valdez away from the accident site and walk away with no responsibility.
I’m sure that many would cry foul or “liar, liar pants on fire” to the estimated $3.5B Exxon has expended as a result of the accident. We also cannot overlook the $507.5M deemed by the court to be the appropriate compensatory damages. These damages would include direct damages as well as short and long-term losses of those fisherman and other businesses adversely impacted by the accident. I cannot imagine a scenario in which the compensatory damages did not include every last penny of damage and lost business that could be legitimately tied to the accident. That is the way it should be and we really have no reason to believe otherwise.
We have to get past this apparent blind hatred of big business or capitalism, in general, and industries such as the oil industry, in particular. Lest we forget that there is always someone with less money than us who will always try to find a way to take it from us simply because we have more of it. We have to be careful about trying to dole out justice based solely on the size of someone’s wallet.
Your point is well made. I won’t deny I’m feeling a ‘wee bit angry’ at the oil industry these days. ;-)
On the other hand, there is the point that people with more money then us will take it away from us because they can.
But my feeling that the punishment has to be painful enough to promote change isn’t just for big business.
The only way to achieve change anywhere is to create a situation where it is easier or more profitable to abide by laws, correct safety issues, then it is to continue a current practice.
Take NY, for example. It was easier/cheaper to pay off the inspectors then it was to actually correct any issues with the cranes. As a result, people are dead. NOW, after lawsuits and criminal charges, companies will actually inspect and fix cranes.
Even in day to day life. Speeding tickets are an annoyance, but not enough of a deterrent to stop more and more people from joining the “100MPH club”. Raise the penalty by even $1500 and at least a few people will actually think twice before pushing that speedometer needle over that mark.
The law requiring auto insurance is one of the best examples around. The fine (at least in Fla) is less then the cost of the premium. So, what do you think most people do? Make the fine $5000 or forfeiture of the car and the numbers of uninsured motorists will go down. Oklahoma already takes the car and if the motorist didn’t have coverage at the time of the stop, the car belongs to the state. Good law. In the first few months the numbers of uninsured motorists dropped.
A possible fine of, say, $50,000 would stop us in our tracks on anything we might consider doing. A fine of $50,000 to someone that makes $10M a year would not stop them.
So there are definitely times when basing a penalty on the size of the wallet is in order.
I think it applies to anyone- NOT just big business. I really do believe, however, big business is guilty of putting profit above health/safety/welfare/environment because of the gains vs the possible cost if they are caught or if an accident occurs. They just talk in billions instead of hundreds. Same principle.
The amount of damages awarded in the initial judgement were equal to 1 year of profits at Exxon at the time of the verdict. Not one day as has been tossed about.
And EXXON has been sitting on that money for the last 19 years buying back stock, giving departing CEOS 400 million severance etc., etc. Only Big Business can buy 19 yrs of delays in paying on a debt. In the meantime the families that lost their livlihoods have been living on bunkas. It always amazes me the apologists for Corporate America NEVER take into account those who are harmed. Empathy is a feeling that is absent in their personna. Kind of sad actually.
Chris, I tend to think we would see an endless stream of truly sad stories of homeless fisherman if the Valdez incident resulted in such. If the fishing business was adversely impacted by the spill, then the fisherman would have received appropriate and just restitution in the form of compensatory damages.
There are laws and corporate oversight mechanisms in place to prevent Exxon from acting in an inappropriate manner as you suggest. The corporation is also held accountable by its stockholders and I would suspect that many of us are invested in Exxon via our mutual funds and retirement programs.
Exxon is a big, powerful company that serves the needs of the general public by providing for our energy needs and other very necessary goods and services. If they generate $400B in revenue and $40B in profit in the process, then bravo to them. I just don’t understand this vilification of profit when we all benefit from living in a free society and have ample opportunity to thrive in a capitalistic economy.
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Keep thinking what you’re thinking and watch the decline. Why do you think the stock market is going down? Keep punishing businesses and watch your 401k evaporate. Have fun!
It appears some very relevant issues are being overlooked due to an obvious and intense desire by some to really punish Exxon. Based on many of the posts, one could easily infer that Exxon was simply permitted to haul the Valdez away from the accident site and walk away with no responsibility.
I’m sure that many would cry foul or “liar, liar pants on fire” to the estimated $3.5B Exxon has expended as a result of the accident. We also cannot overlook the $507.5M deemed by the court to be the appropriate compensatory damages. These damages would include direct damages as well as short and long-term losses of those fisherman and other businesses adversely impacted by the accident. I cannot imagine a scenario in which the compensatory damages did not include every last penny of damage and lost business that could be legitimately tied to the accident. That is the way it should be and we really have no reason to believe otherwise.
We have to get past this apparent blind hatred of big business or capitalism, in general, and industries such as the oil industry, in particular. Lest we forget that there is always someone with less money than us who will always try to find a way to take it from us simply because we have more of it. We have to be careful about trying to dole out justice based solely on the size of someone’s wallet.
How does it feel to be a corporate shill? You do their bidding while they sit back and reap the profits. You must feel really small right about now.
Your point is well made. I won’t deny I’m feeling a ‘wee bit angry’ at the oil industry these days. ;-)
On the other hand, there is the point that people with more money then us will take it away from us because they can.
But my feeling that the punishment has to be painful enough to promote change isn’t just for big business.
The only way to achieve change anywhere is to create a situation where it is easier or more profitable to abide by laws, correct safety issues, then it is to continue a current practice.
Take NY, for example. It was easier/cheaper to pay off the inspectors then it was to actually correct any issues with the cranes. As a result, people are dead. NOW, after lawsuits and criminal charges, companies will actually inspect and fix cranes.
Even in day to day life. Speeding tickets are an annoyance, but not enough of a deterrent to stop more and more people from joining the “100MPH club”. Raise the penalty by even $1500 and at least a few people will actually think twice before pushing that speedometer needle over that mark.
The law requiring auto insurance is one of the best examples around. The fine (at least in Fla) is less then the cost of the premium. So, what do you think most people do? Make the fine $5000 or forfeiture of the car and the numbers of uninsured motorists will go down. Oklahoma already takes the car and if the motorist didn’t have coverage at the time of the stop, the car belongs to the state. Good law. In the first few months the numbers of uninsured motorists dropped.
A possible fine of, say, $50,000 would stop us in our tracks on anything we might consider doing. A fine of $50,000 to someone that makes $10M a year would not stop them.
So there are definitely times when basing a penalty on the size of the wallet is in order.
I think it applies to anyone- NOT just big business. I really do believe, however, big business is guilty of putting profit above health/safety/welfare/environment because of the gains vs the possible cost if they are caught or if an accident occurs. They just talk in billions instead of hundreds. Same principle.
The amount of damages awarded in the initial judgement were equal to 1 year of profits at Exxon at the time of the verdict. Not one day as has been tossed about.
Yea now its one hour though.
And they spent more then they made in 2 years 25 years ago to fight it.
And EXXON has been sitting on that money for the last 19 years buying back stock, giving departing CEOS 400 million severance etc., etc. Only Big Business can buy 19 yrs of delays in paying on a debt. In the meantime the families that lost their livlihoods have been living on bunkas. It always amazes me the apologists for Corporate America NEVER take into account those who are harmed. Empathy is a feeling that is absent in their personna. Kind of sad actually.
Chris, I tend to think we would see an endless stream of truly sad stories of homeless fisherman if the Valdez incident resulted in such. If the fishing business was adversely impacted by the spill, then the fisherman would have received appropriate and just restitution in the form of compensatory damages.
There are laws and corporate oversight mechanisms in place to prevent Exxon from acting in an inappropriate manner as you suggest. The corporation is also held accountable by its stockholders and I would suspect that many of us are invested in Exxon via our mutual funds and retirement programs.
Exxon is a big, powerful company that serves the needs of the general public by providing for our energy needs and other very necessary goods and services. If they generate $400B in revenue and $40B in profit in the process, then bravo to them. I just don’t understand this vilification of profit when we all benefit from living in a free society and have ample opportunity to thrive in a capitalistic economy.
Dawn – I appreciate your thoughtful response, but think this is an area in which we simply need to respectfully agree to disagree.