Jeff hit the nail on the head. Manslaughter indicates that the act which caused the death was not premeditated or planned.
Obviously murdering a humn and a dog would carry totally different sentences.
Mr. Vic’s case is not just one of animal cruelty but he ran an illegal dog fight AND he sponsered the gabling which some believe is the same as actaully doing the gambling.
He is trying to salvage what little he can from an illustrious carrer.
These poor people have to go throug life knowing that a stupid childish act actually took another human’s life.
Should the fraternity be held somewhat accountable for PRESSURING this kid to drink? Ultimately to his death? Do you honestly think the fraternity said, “That’s ok, you don’t have to drink if you don’t want to. We still accept you for who you are.” Two mistakes were made. The fraternity for forcing him to drink and the kid for wanting to be part of a group of losers.
Agree w/you Mitch. The greek system has always been an elitist group of wealthy kids who want to maintain their status. Many come from homes where the parents were too permissive and now the kids bad judgment comes home to roost. In this day and age we should be questioning what, if any value the Greek system contributes to the educational system in the first place.
When I was in college the frats were either a drinking club or an elitist club. Neither reflected that well on the college educational experience. Get rid of all of them.
I was a dorm rat for my entire college career…and i what i think is antiquated is most people’s perspective of fraternties/sororities. no, i didn’t belong to one, but living in the dorms and working the night desk…if i had a dollar for every kid that came home from an off campus house party, i would have made quite a bit of money. i think people tend to point to fraternities for partying too much the same way they point and say molestation is only a catholic church thing.
and i still think the central issue is where does the liablity of the administration stop? what if this had been an off campus party at a house owned by a student and or a students parents? what about a dorm?
does that mean when students rent an apartment, the landlord can be held responsible if the same thing were to happen?
It is not an easy question for some as to where liability stop but where a university, as here, has a director of frat life, it would appear they’re taking some responsibility for the frat.
On Vick, he is not going to get off light. I love dogs. But most people who commit cruelty to animals, even when caught and convicted, do no time at all. None for first offense. He’s going to do time because he is well known, because of the gambling and because it crossed state lines. I don’t feel sorry in any way for Michael Vick. It wealth may require that he be housed in a better facility because otherwise it would be very difficult to protect him in prison but that he’s going at all is largely because of his wealth and fame. That’s not unfair; because of his status as a national sports figure young people look up to him. They need to know that if you commit a crime, even when you’re Mike Vick, Atlanta Falcon quarterback, you’ll do the time.
I think the dead guy is ultimately responsible for his own weakness and death. However there is case law supporting liability for those that pressured him into it (please don’t ask me to cite it now, I’ll do research at home if you want). That’s why I would be okay with a misdemeanor manslaughter charge. They need to pay for their actions as well. A conviction on these grounds would also go a long way toward preventing future occurances. Obviously prior deaths haven’t curbed hazing – maybe jail time will.
I advocate eliminating the Greek system because there are too many stories of “bad apples” coming from the system. Sororities with illegal discrimination, fraternities with binge drinking deaths, sex scandals and other bad news. I know these represent a small minority of the system, but they cast a pall over the whole thing. Unless someone can give me a very compelling reason to have the system around I will continue to believe it should be abolished.
Whoa! Easy there, big fellas! I’m not saying do away with the greek system. Can’t let this bad apple spoil the bunch, but a message does need to be sent. I had a great time in college fraternizing with the greeks, and most of them were respectable groups of students. But every so often we hear of these hazing deaths and something has to be done. This fraternity, as a group, needs to step up as a man and admit they had a big role in the death of their pledge. You do the crime, you pay the time. And since there is some type of school official governing the fraternity & sororities, they too should be held somewhat accountable. Unfortunate for them, but they weren’t doing their job.
You said that “That’s where a charge of involuntary manslaughter might be in line for the people running the party who pressured this kid to drink himself to death. They were stupid, but do need to pay for their stupidity. Nobody in modern America is unaware of the dangers of binge drinking.”
That’s right, nobody in modern America is unaware of the dangers of binge drinking… that includes the unfortunately dead man.
By your own words we know that he understood the danger he was facing and CHOSE to assume that risk. That’s the job we are all in- the assumption, retaining and transfer of risk- that is insurance… so by everything we know this man decided to take a risk, without transferring, assigning, or reducing the risk. That mean that man is the only one responsible and liable for his own death.
If you didn’t have health insurance would BlueCross/BlueSheild pay your claims? No, because you knew of the risk and chose to retain it. This man knew of the risks involved in his behavior and retained that risk by drinking that much anyway.
Unless you can prove that he said- “If I suffer from alcohol poisoning, you will take me to the nearest hospital immediately” and all of these people charged responded, “Yes, we will do that” then they are not responsible. It’s not like we know they were all sitting and watching him die, taking bets on when he would expire, they were all probably too drunk to even know anything was wrong.
Realist: If you follow recent developments in dram shop law, you know that the very essence of dram shop liability against a bar owner is that the drunk person was served beyond his capacity to form judgments about right from wrong. Your argument about personal responsibility fails in light of these developments. Personal accountability? We don’t need no steenking personal accountability.
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Jeff hit the nail on the head. Manslaughter indicates that the act which caused the death was not premeditated or planned.
Obviously murdering a humn and a dog would carry totally different sentences.
Mr. Vic’s case is not just one of animal cruelty but he ran an illegal dog fight AND he sponsered the gabling which some believe is the same as actaully doing the gambling.
He is trying to salvage what little he can from an illustrious carrer.
These poor people have to go throug life knowing that a stupid childish act actually took another human’s life.
Should the fraternity be held somewhat accountable for PRESSURING this kid to drink? Ultimately to his death? Do you honestly think the fraternity said, “That’s ok, you don’t have to drink if you don’t want to. We still accept you for who you are.” Two mistakes were made. The fraternity for forcing him to drink and the kid for wanting to be part of a group of losers.
Agree w/you Mitch. The greek system has always been an elitist group of wealthy kids who want to maintain their status. Many come from homes where the parents were too permissive and now the kids bad judgment comes home to roost. In this day and age we should be questioning what, if any value the Greek system contributes to the educational system in the first place.
When I was in college the frats were either a drinking club or an elitist club. Neither reflected that well on the college educational experience. Get rid of all of them.
I was a dorm rat for my entire college career…and i what i think is antiquated is most people’s perspective of fraternties/sororities. no, i didn’t belong to one, but living in the dorms and working the night desk…if i had a dollar for every kid that came home from an off campus house party, i would have made quite a bit of money. i think people tend to point to fraternities for partying too much the same way they point and say molestation is only a catholic church thing.
and i still think the central issue is where does the liablity of the administration stop? what if this had been an off campus party at a house owned by a student and or a students parents? what about a dorm?
does that mean when students rent an apartment, the landlord can be held responsible if the same thing were to happen?
It is not an easy question for some as to where liability stop but where a university, as here, has a director of frat life, it would appear they’re taking some responsibility for the frat.
On Vick, he is not going to get off light. I love dogs. But most people who commit cruelty to animals, even when caught and convicted, do no time at all. None for first offense. He’s going to do time because he is well known, because of the gambling and because it crossed state lines. I don’t feel sorry in any way for Michael Vick. It wealth may require that he be housed in a better facility because otherwise it would be very difficult to protect him in prison but that he’s going at all is largely because of his wealth and fame. That’s not unfair; because of his status as a national sports figure young people look up to him. They need to know that if you commit a crime, even when you’re Mike Vick, Atlanta Falcon quarterback, you’ll do the time.
I think the dead guy is ultimately responsible for his own weakness and death. However there is case law supporting liability for those that pressured him into it (please don’t ask me to cite it now, I’ll do research at home if you want). That’s why I would be okay with a misdemeanor manslaughter charge. They need to pay for their actions as well. A conviction on these grounds would also go a long way toward preventing future occurances. Obviously prior deaths haven’t curbed hazing – maybe jail time will.
I advocate eliminating the Greek system because there are too many stories of “bad apples” coming from the system. Sororities with illegal discrimination, fraternities with binge drinking deaths, sex scandals and other bad news. I know these represent a small minority of the system, but they cast a pall over the whole thing. Unless someone can give me a very compelling reason to have the system around I will continue to believe it should be abolished.
Whoa! Easy there, big fellas! I’m not saying do away with the greek system. Can’t let this bad apple spoil the bunch, but a message does need to be sent. I had a great time in college fraternizing with the greeks, and most of them were respectable groups of students. But every so often we hear of these hazing deaths and something has to be done. This fraternity, as a group, needs to step up as a man and admit they had a big role in the death of their pledge. You do the crime, you pay the time. And since there is some type of school official governing the fraternity & sororities, they too should be held somewhat accountable. Unfortunate for them, but they weren’t doing their job.
Hold on there babaloui (lastbat)!
You said that “That’s where a charge of involuntary manslaughter might be in line for the people running the party who pressured this kid to drink himself to death. They were stupid, but do need to pay for their stupidity. Nobody in modern America is unaware of the dangers of binge drinking.”
That’s right, nobody in modern America is unaware of the dangers of binge drinking… that includes the unfortunately dead man.
By your own words we know that he understood the danger he was facing and CHOSE to assume that risk. That’s the job we are all in- the assumption, retaining and transfer of risk- that is insurance… so by everything we know this man decided to take a risk, without transferring, assigning, or reducing the risk. That mean that man is the only one responsible and liable for his own death.
If you didn’t have health insurance would BlueCross/BlueSheild pay your claims? No, because you knew of the risk and chose to retain it. This man knew of the risks involved in his behavior and retained that risk by drinking that much anyway.
Unless you can prove that he said- “If I suffer from alcohol poisoning, you will take me to the nearest hospital immediately” and all of these people charged responded, “Yes, we will do that” then they are not responsible. It’s not like we know they were all sitting and watching him die, taking bets on when he would expire, they were all probably too drunk to even know anything was wrong.
Realist: If you follow recent developments in dram shop law, you know that the very essence of dram shop liability against a bar owner is that the drunk person was served beyond his capacity to form judgments about right from wrong. Your argument about personal responsibility fails in light of these developments. Personal accountability? We don’t need no steenking personal accountability.