The plaque outside of the Auschwitz camp used to say 4.2 million were killed there, until c. 1990 when it was changed to say 1.1 million. So shouldn\’t it now be three million rather than six?
If it can\’t even be determined how many were killed, or where, what good is an insurance claim on a sixty year-old policy? There are no records or who went to what kind of death in the camp, except at Auschwitz where records were kept of those who died if disease (78,000 names and causes of death are in the \”death books\”).
And how does anyone know if his grandparents were shipped off to a camp or died under British bombing in their home? The Allies bombed French cities just to fill roads in them with rubble to impede the German retreat. Who can tell who died where?
I\’m sure what you are saying is true in many cases, but there are also plenty of cases where people do know exactly what happened to their relatives. My grandmother knew exactly when, where and how her extended family was killed.
Ellie, I\’m not sure what you are getting at. Your responses are leading me to think that you are a Holocaust denier.
If so there\’s not much I can do here to convince you otherwise. I hope this is not the case as overwhelming evidence exists that many millions of Jews and others were murdered by the Nazis. I\’ve met several survivors of Auschwitz.
If you are disputing the payment of these claims consider this: these insurance companies have the log books of their sales – who bought what when, who the beneficiaries were, amounts paid, etc. What the beneficiaries did not have were the actual policies to turn in and in many, many cases death certificates were not available. The insurance companies refused to open their books effectively shutting out anyone who tried to make a claim wihtout a policy.
What leads you to suggest that I am a \”holocaust denier\”? Al Sharpton calls everyone who disagrees with him a \”racist.\” Does that mean he wins the debate? Let\’s please keep name-calling on the sidelines.
Forcing the companies to open their books is just an invitation for everyone who had a relative disapear during the war to go fishing. If they are found to have had a policy, all it proves is that there was a policy. With no way of knowing how someone died, or maybe escaped to Russia or America where many of them changed their names, what\’s that prove?
When 50 million people die in a war, and one group is standing there with its hand out like they are the most agrieved, it just smacks of shamelessness to me.
I don\’t think anyone was claiming that they were the most aggrieved or that they have suffered more than anyone else. At the most basic level without emotion this is a policy that was paid for and the insurance companies closed the books on and refused to pay. That\’s what\’s shameful. Not people collecting what they or their relatives paid for.
I don\’t think Kevin was calling you a holocaust denier, I think he was saying that some of the things you have said might lead one to belive you are. Your reference to eye witness testimony and memory being unreliable is generally true in the case of bank robberies and such, however, I would tend to think that you would have a very clear memory of what happened when your entire family or town was killed.
After reading your post I was wondering the same thing as Kevin. I\’m happy to read that you are not though.
I enjoy reading your posts (well thought out and level headed). I often wonder how people can deny an event happened. I guess the signing of the Declaration of Independence never occurred either huh?
\”Eye witness testimony and testimony from memory are two of the most unreliable forms of evidence, made the more problematic with each passing day.\”Ellie
I find that post to be extremely hilarious (for lack of a better word). We are not talking about people who were robbed in a bank and identify the wrong perpetrator. We are talking about people\’s RELATIVES (loved ones) being killed. I know I would remember something that horrible and at least where it happened. Anyway, I am not sure of the point of that statement in this particular context. Maybe Ellie would care to explain.
I really don\’t think that Holocaust survivors or victims\’ families are standing \”with their hands out\”, or that they have anything to be ashamed of. If the twenty million Russians who dies in the war had insurance policies, I\’m sure they would expect them to be paid. I\’m sure policies were not even available to most of them. Is it the Jews\’ fault that they had the foresight to buy life insurance? Furthermore, I\’m inclined to thing that any who are seeking payment are acting purely on principle, since nobody is going to retire to the bahamas on a $6,000 payout.
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I would also wonder if an act of Genocide would be considered in a war exclusion.
The plaque outside of the Auschwitz camp used to say 4.2 million were killed there, until c. 1990 when it was changed to say 1.1 million. So shouldn\’t it now be three million rather than six?
If it can\’t even be determined how many were killed, or where, what good is an insurance claim on a sixty year-old policy? There are no records or who went to what kind of death in the camp, except at Auschwitz where records were kept of those who died if disease (78,000 names and causes of death are in the \”death books\”).
And how does anyone know if his grandparents were shipped off to a camp or died under British bombing in their home? The Allies bombed French cities just to fill roads in them with rubble to impede the German retreat. Who can tell who died where?
I\’m sure what you are saying is true in many cases, but there are also plenty of cases where people do know exactly what happened to their relatives. My grandmother knew exactly when, where and how her extended family was killed.
Eye witness testimony and testimony from memory are two of the most unreliable forms of evidence, made the more problematic with each passing day.
Ellie, I\’m not sure what you are getting at. Your responses are leading me to think that you are a Holocaust denier.
If so there\’s not much I can do here to convince you otherwise. I hope this is not the case as overwhelming evidence exists that many millions of Jews and others were murdered by the Nazis. I\’ve met several survivors of Auschwitz.
If you are disputing the payment of these claims consider this: these insurance companies have the log books of their sales – who bought what when, who the beneficiaries were, amounts paid, etc. What the beneficiaries did not have were the actual policies to turn in and in many, many cases death certificates were not available. The insurance companies refused to open their books effectively shutting out anyone who tried to make a claim wihtout a policy.
Kevin Rasmussen
What leads you to suggest that I am a \”holocaust denier\”? Al Sharpton calls everyone who disagrees with him a \”racist.\” Does that mean he wins the debate? Let\’s please keep name-calling on the sidelines.
Forcing the companies to open their books is just an invitation for everyone who had a relative disapear during the war to go fishing. If they are found to have had a policy, all it proves is that there was a policy. With no way of knowing how someone died, or maybe escaped to Russia or America where many of them changed their names, what\’s that prove?
When 50 million people die in a war, and one group is standing there with its hand out like they are the most agrieved, it just smacks of shamelessness to me.
I don\’t think anyone was claiming that they were the most aggrieved or that they have suffered more than anyone else. At the most basic level without emotion this is a policy that was paid for and the insurance companies closed the books on and refused to pay. That\’s what\’s shameful. Not people collecting what they or their relatives paid for.
I don\’t think Kevin was calling you a holocaust denier, I think he was saying that some of the things you have said might lead one to belive you are. Your reference to eye witness testimony and memory being unreliable is generally true in the case of bank robberies and such, however, I would tend to think that you would have a very clear memory of what happened when your entire family or town was killed.
After reading your post I was wondering the same thing as Kevin. I\’m happy to read that you are not though.
Kevin Raz-
I enjoy reading your posts (well thought out and level headed). I often wonder how people can deny an event happened. I guess the signing of the Declaration of Independence never occurred either huh?
\”Eye witness testimony and testimony from memory are two of the most unreliable forms of evidence, made the more problematic with each passing day.\”Ellie
I find that post to be extremely hilarious (for lack of a better word). We are not talking about people who were robbed in a bank and identify the wrong perpetrator. We are talking about people\’s RELATIVES (loved ones) being killed. I know I would remember something that horrible and at least where it happened. Anyway, I am not sure of the point of that statement in this particular context. Maybe Ellie would care to explain.
Thank you :)
I really don\’t think that Holocaust survivors or victims\’ families are standing \”with their hands out\”, or that they have anything to be ashamed of. If the twenty million Russians who dies in the war had insurance policies, I\’m sure they would expect them to be paid. I\’m sure policies were not even available to most of them. Is it the Jews\’ fault that they had the foresight to buy life insurance? Furthermore, I\’m inclined to thing that any who are seeking payment are acting purely on principle, since nobody is going to retire to the bahamas on a $6,000 payout.
Good to see Jewel\’s got my back again. Thing \”Ellie\” is \”Mell\”? What\’s up with this board anyway?