I notice you quote California cases, which when appealed to Federal Supreme Court are overturned. California is a state of communistic government where business is considered bad and where people are considered stupid and where the government is all powerful. No wonder your opinions are slanted this way. Was O.J. acquited in California…enough said!
How can you say \”I\’m also sure that the \”sister in law\” is a little more than that to Mr. Vail.\”? Exactly what are you trying to say here? Do you even know these people? NO
You are reading a article and making personal judgments against these individuals that you know nothing about.
Say what you want about the case, obviously the law has sided with them and that is all that matters. But when you start talking about people in the way that you have- you cross the line!
You posted that \”State Farm had some credible witnesses and sent info to State for prosecution\”. How do you know they were credible witnesses, just because they say they were? Looks to me like the court/jury did not find them very credible.
You posted \”No harm done.\” How can you say this? You have no idea what these people went through, nor their spouses and children. How would you feel if your name was smeared like theirs was? I am sure they had to pay attorney fees, take off from work to go to court, ect., and went through a lot of stress with this whole thing. They should be compansated for the hell they have went through for what, 8 years now?
You also said \”Insurance companies are part of this great economy we have in the U.S. They have helped millions of families and businesses rebuild after tragic events\”. I agree with you totally on this one. But sometimes they mess up, and sometimes they have to pay for thier mistakes and false accusations.
AGAIN JUST CAUSE A JURY SAYS SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRECT.
A PROSECUTOR DEEMED THEM CREDIBLE. PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD.
ALL INS. CO. DID WAS TURN OVER INFO THEY HAD TO THE PROSECUTORS ETC.
THIS HARKENS BACK TO OUR \’LOTTERY\’ SYTEM WE CALL JUSTICE. JURY MEMBERS THINK IT MAY BE THEIR TURN ONE DAY SO GO AHEAD AND AWARD LARGE DAMAGES. JUST LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE CARLA AND THINK ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES HERE. STATE FARM REPAIRING OR REPLACING CAR CORRECTS HARM PER JURY\’S DECISION. WHY WASNT STATE SUED…THEY PROSECUTED!!! WHAT ON EARTH CAUSED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF HARM. JUST CAUSE YOUR FEELINGS MIGHT BE HURT…SOMEONE WILL PAY! I SAY NO, GET OVER IT!!
Going to trial does not make for a horrible tragedy. How was their name smeared. Grow up Carla and use your brain not you feelings. Use your brain not your feelings. Repeated for emphasis. It was not a false accusation-the prosecutor accused them. State Farm only turned over info they gathered in their investigation. If prosecutors thought case was bad or witnesses not credible, they would have sent back to State Farm to repair or replace the vehicle…END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Subject: RE: No harm done? — MUD
Posted On: December 9, 2005, 7:46 am CST
Posted By: MUD
Comment:
I notice you quote California cases, which when appealed to Federal Supreme Court are overturned. California is a state of communistic government where business is considered bad and where people are considered stupid and where the government is all powerful. No wonder your opinions are slanted this way. Was O. J. acquitted in California…enough said!
======================================
Mr. MUD,
I find it interesting that you compared the O. J. trial to this State Farm case.
Correct me if I\’m wrong but are you not forgetting a few things in the O. J. Simpson case?
Was it unreasonable for the jury in the O. J. Simpson trial to come to the conclusion they did \”when much of the evidence they were presented with\” came from lead Police detective Mark Fuhrman who later plead guilty to perjury on the stand of the O. J. trial and who also took the fifth amendment when asked \”if he had planted or manufacture evidence\”.
As a result, the prosecution was forced to label their main police witness as a \”bad cop\” in it\’s closing arguments.
\”With the jury absent on September 6, 1995, Fuhrman was asked questions as to whether or not he had ever falsified police reports or if he had planted or manufacture evidence in the Simpson case and Detective Fuhrman invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination\”.
In Madam Foreman (Dove Books), by Simpson jurors Armanda Cooley Carrie Bess, and Marsha Rubin-Jackson, Cooley says that several jurors questioned:
Mr. MUD,
Why was EDTA, a blood preservative used in a sample vial that was later drawn from O. J., and this EDTA was found in the only one single blood drop of blood and this was the only evidence that physically linked O. J. to the crime scene.
This single blood drop was found at the gate of the Brent Wood murder site three weeks after the murder by Mark Fuhrman and after blood was drawn from O. J. Simpson but EDTA was not found in crime scene examiners Fung\’s other samples.
And although the prosecution spent considerable time showing how and why the samples of the Brentwood pathway blood had degraded because of the way Fung improperly stored them in a sweltering van, Juror Cooley still writes, \”It should have deteriorated along with the other samples.\”
In testimony in the O. J. trial the person who said she had drawn 8 cc\’s of blood from O. J. and the crime laboratory personal could not explain why they only could have accounted for 6.5 cc\’s.
Is it unreasonable for the O. J. Simpson jurors to have concluded that just maybe Fuhrman or his partner, had planted the blood at the crime scene three weeks after the crime?
Could not any reasonable jury also come to the conclusion that some of the key evidence was tainted?
Mr. MUD,
I\’m not claiming O.J. was innocent but how many Death Penalty convictions have been overturned since DNA evidence became available?
Getting back to State Farm Case, Mr. MUD
Does not State Farm have a history of using false witnesses as described by NBC News Dateline\’s 2000 investigative report: The Paper Chase
and also in the reading the 2003 Opinion of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg, and the Supreme Court of UTAH in the case of STATE FARM vs. CAMPBELL does not State Farm also have a history and \”general practice of business\” of \”knowingly\” making false statements to support their position.
Ample evidence allowed the jury to find that State Farm\’s treatment of the Campbell\’s typified its \”Performance, Planning and Review\” (PP&R) program; implemented by top management in 1979, the program had \”the explicit objective of using the claims-adjustment process as a profit center.\”
Evidence the jury could credit demonstrated that the PP&R program regularly and adversely affected Utah residents. Ray Summers, \”the adjuster who handled the Campbell case and who was a State Farm employee in Utah for almost twenty years,\” described several methods used by State Farm to deny claimants fair benefits, for example, \”falsifying or withholding of evidence in claim files.\”
The trial court also noted the testimony of two Utah State Farm employees, Felix Jensen and Samantha Bird, both of whom recalled \”intolerable\” and \”recurrent\” pressure to reduce payouts below fair value.
When Jensen complained to top managers, he was told to \”get out of the kitchen\” if he could not take the heat; Bird was told she should be \”more of a team player.\”
At times, Bird said, she \”was forced to commit dishonest acts and to knowingly underpay claims.\”
Eventually, Bird quit. Utah managers superior to Bird, the evidence indicated, were improperly influenced by the PP&R program to encourage insurance underpayments. For example, several documents evaluating the performance of managers Noxon and Brown \”contained explicit preset average payout goals.\”
In this regard, the trial court noted the testimony of several former State Farm employees affirming that they were trained to target \”the weakest of the herd\”–\”the elderly, the poor, and other consumers who are least knowledgeable about their rights and thus most vulnerable to trickery or deceit, or who have little money and hence have no real alternative but to accept an inadequate offer to settle a claim at much less than fair value.\”
State Farm manager Bob Noxon, Summers testified, resorted to a tactic of this order in the Campbell case when he \”instruct[ed] Summers to write in the file that Todd Ospital (who was killed in the accident) was speeding because he was on his way to see a pregnant girlfriend.\” Ibid. In truth, \”[t]here was no pregnant girlfriend.\” http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=01-1289#dissent3
Mr. MUD,
If this is how State Farm treats their own first party policyholders, how will they treat third party claimants?
If history does not matter, Mr. MUD, why is State Farm so sensitive to this case?
Was State Farm\’s good name smeared by it\’s own employees, in the Campbell case? What would be their motive?
Is \”NO HARM WAS DONE\”, to falsely accused innocent insurance companies of fraud?
As you said MUD,
\”JUST CAUSE A JURY SAYS SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRECT.\”
Could the same be said about Insurance Companies and their lobbyists?
A bad as it is the jury system may be it is the only method found to seek legal redress under the law.
Mr. MUD,
Would you whish to seek to have Private Insurance Companies to be the only arbiters of the truth?
Please State Farm did not falsely accuse anyone, they turned over their evidence to the proper authorities. These authorities then accused after reviewing the evidence. I did not compare OJ to this trial. I only used as an example of the \’justice\’ system in California. Keep facts straight. If you want to discuss old trials please go to law school where they teach law based on trial outcomes rather than on law and you will be able to find many other liberals who hold your same views.
My intention is to keep to the facts of this case since they were the only point of this article and the facts presented to the judge and jury.
As liberals always do, your discussion on journalistic attempts by NBC(the most liberal \’news\’ station) hold no weight whatsoever. I would not trust NBC to tell me the correct time without some kind of leftist slant.
I find it odd that this car was not stripped, just burned in an open field. Toyotas\’ bring good money on the black market!!!
We have updated our privacy policy to be more clear and meet the new requirements of the GDPR. By continuing to use our site, you accept our revised Privacy Policy.
I notice you quote California cases, which when appealed to Federal Supreme Court are overturned. California is a state of communistic government where business is considered bad and where people are considered stupid and where the government is all powerful. No wonder your opinions are slanted this way. Was O.J. acquited in California…enough said!
You have an obvious dislike of SF. You have no right to imply that all insurance carriers are dishonorable.
Reagan,
How can you say \”I\’m also sure that the \”sister in law\” is a little more than that to Mr. Vail.\”? Exactly what are you trying to say here? Do you even know these people? NO
You are reading a article and making personal judgments against these individuals that you know nothing about.
Say what you want about the case, obviously the law has sided with them and that is all that matters. But when you start talking about people in the way that you have- you cross the line!
Mud-
You posted that \”State Farm had some credible witnesses and sent info to State for prosecution\”. How do you know they were credible witnesses, just because they say they were? Looks to me like the court/jury did not find them very credible.
You posted \”No harm done.\” How can you say this? You have no idea what these people went through, nor their spouses and children. How would you feel if your name was smeared like theirs was? I am sure they had to pay attorney fees, take off from work to go to court, ect., and went through a lot of stress with this whole thing. They should be compansated for the hell they have went through for what, 8 years now?
You also said \”Insurance companies are part of this great economy we have in the U.S. They have helped millions of families and businesses rebuild after tragic events\”. I agree with you totally on this one. But sometimes they mess up, and sometimes they have to pay for thier mistakes and false accusations.
AGAIN JUST CAUSE A JURY SAYS SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRECT.
A PROSECUTOR DEEMED THEM CREDIBLE. PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD.
ALL INS. CO. DID WAS TURN OVER INFO THEY HAD TO THE PROSECUTORS ETC.
THIS HARKENS BACK TO OUR \’LOTTERY\’ SYTEM WE CALL JUSTICE. JURY MEMBERS THINK IT MAY BE THEIR TURN ONE DAY SO GO AHEAD AND AWARD LARGE DAMAGES. JUST LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE CARLA AND THINK ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES HERE. STATE FARM REPAIRING OR REPLACING CAR CORRECTS HARM PER JURY\’S DECISION. WHY WASNT STATE SUED…THEY PROSECUTED!!! WHAT ON EARTH CAUSED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF HARM. JUST CAUSE YOUR FEELINGS MIGHT BE HURT…SOMEONE WILL PAY! I SAY NO, GET OVER IT!!
Going to trial does not make for a horrible tragedy. How was their name smeared. Grow up Carla and use your brain not you feelings. Use your brain not your feelings. Repeated for emphasis. It was not a false accusation-the prosecutor accused them. State Farm only turned over info they gathered in their investigation. If prosecutors thought case was bad or witnesses not credible, they would have sent back to State Farm to repair or replace the vehicle…END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stress is always self-inflicted, how a person responds to outside stimuli!!!
Their lawyers would be covered under an umbrella policy if they intelligent enough to have purchased one.
Subject: RE: No harm done? — MUD
Posted On: December 9, 2005, 7:46 am CST
Posted By: MUD
Comment:
I notice you quote California cases, which when appealed to Federal Supreme Court are overturned. California is a state of communistic government where business is considered bad and where people are considered stupid and where the government is all powerful. No wonder your opinions are slanted this way. Was O. J. acquitted in California…enough said!
======================================
Mr. MUD,
I find it interesting that you compared the O. J. trial to this State Farm case.
Correct me if I\’m wrong but are you not forgetting a few things in the O. J. Simpson case?
Was it unreasonable for the jury in the O. J. Simpson trial to come to the conclusion they did \”when much of the evidence they were presented with\” came from lead Police detective Mark Fuhrman who later plead guilty to perjury on the stand of the O. J. trial and who also took the fifth amendment when asked \”if he had planted or manufacture evidence\”.
As a result, the prosecution was forced to label their main police witness as a \”bad cop\” in it\’s closing arguments.
\”With the jury absent on September 6, 1995, Fuhrman was asked questions as to whether or not he had ever falsified police reports or if he had planted or manufacture evidence in the Simpson case and Detective Fuhrman invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination\”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman
In Madam Foreman (Dove Books), by Simpson jurors Armanda Cooley Carrie Bess, and Marsha Rubin-Jackson, Cooley says that several jurors questioned:
Mr. MUD,
Why was EDTA, a blood preservative used in a sample vial that was later drawn from O. J., and this EDTA was found in the only one single blood drop of blood and this was the only evidence that physically linked O. J. to the crime scene.
This single blood drop was found at the gate of the Brent Wood murder site three weeks after the murder by Mark Fuhrman and after blood was drawn from O. J. Simpson but EDTA was not found in crime scene examiners Fung\’s other samples.
And although the prosecution spent considerable time showing how and why the samples of the Brentwood pathway blood had degraded because of the way Fung improperly stored them in a sweltering van, Juror Cooley still writes, \”It should have deteriorated along with the other samples.\”
In testimony in the O. J. trial the person who said she had drawn 8 cc\’s of blood from O. J. and the crime laboratory personal could not explain why they only could have accounted for 6.5 cc\’s.
Is it unreasonable for the O. J. Simpson jurors to have concluded that just maybe Fuhrman or his partner, had planted the blood at the crime scene three weeks after the crime?
Could not any reasonable jury also come to the conclusion that some of the key evidence was tainted?
Mr. MUD,
I\’m not claiming O.J. was innocent but how many Death Penalty convictions have been overturned since DNA evidence became available?
Getting back to State Farm Case, Mr. MUD
Does not State Farm have a history of using false witnesses as described by NBC News Dateline\’s 2000 investigative report: The Paper Chase
http://www.attorneykennugent.com/new/statefarm.html
Has State Farm turned over a new leaf?
and also in the reading the 2003 Opinion of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg, and the Supreme Court of UTAH in the case of STATE FARM vs. CAMPBELL does not State Farm also have a history and \”general practice of business\” of \”knowingly\” making false statements to support their position.
Ample evidence allowed the jury to find that State Farm\’s treatment of the Campbell\’s typified its \”Performance, Planning and Review\” (PP&R) program; implemented by top management in 1979, the program had \”the explicit objective of using the claims-adjustment process as a profit center.\”
Evidence the jury could credit demonstrated that the PP&R program regularly and adversely affected Utah residents. Ray Summers, \”the adjuster who handled the Campbell case and who was a State Farm employee in Utah for almost twenty years,\” described several methods used by State Farm to deny claimants fair benefits, for example, \”falsifying or withholding of evidence in claim files.\”
The trial court also noted the testimony of two Utah State Farm employees, Felix Jensen and Samantha Bird, both of whom recalled \”intolerable\” and \”recurrent\” pressure to reduce payouts below fair value.
When Jensen complained to top managers, he was told to \”get out of the kitchen\” if he could not take the heat; Bird was told she should be \”more of a team player.\”
At times, Bird said, she \”was forced to commit dishonest acts and to knowingly underpay claims.\”
Eventually, Bird quit. Utah managers superior to Bird, the evidence indicated, were improperly influenced by the PP&R program to encourage insurance underpayments. For example, several documents evaluating the performance of managers Noxon and Brown \”contained explicit preset average payout goals.\”
In this regard, the trial court noted the testimony of several former State Farm employees affirming that they were trained to target \”the weakest of the herd\”–\”the elderly, the poor, and other consumers who are least knowledgeable about their rights and thus most vulnerable to trickery or deceit, or who have little money and hence have no real alternative but to accept an inadequate offer to settle a claim at much less than fair value.\”
State Farm manager Bob Noxon, Summers testified, resorted to a tactic of this order in the Campbell case when he \”instruct[ed] Summers to write in the file that Todd Ospital (who was killed in the accident) was speeding because he was on his way to see a pregnant girlfriend.\” Ibid. In truth, \”[t]here was no pregnant girlfriend.\”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=01-1289#dissent3
Mr. MUD,
If this is how State Farm treats their own first party policyholders, how will they treat third party claimants?
If history does not matter, Mr. MUD, why is State Farm so sensitive to this case?
Was State Farm\’s good name smeared by it\’s own employees, in the Campbell case? What would be their motive?
Is \”NO HARM WAS DONE\”, to falsely accused innocent insurance companies of fraud?
As you said MUD,
\”JUST CAUSE A JURY SAYS SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRECT.\”
Could the same be said about Insurance Companies and their lobbyists?
A bad as it is the jury system may be it is the only method found to seek legal redress under the law.
Mr. MUD,
Would you whish to seek to have Private Insurance Companies to be the only arbiters of the truth?
Please State Farm did not falsely accuse anyone, they turned over their evidence to the proper authorities. These authorities then accused after reviewing the evidence. I did not compare OJ to this trial. I only used as an example of the \’justice\’ system in California. Keep facts straight. If you want to discuss old trials please go to law school where they teach law based on trial outcomes rather than on law and you will be able to find many other liberals who hold your same views.
My intention is to keep to the facts of this case since they were the only point of this article and the facts presented to the judge and jury.
As liberals always do, your discussion on journalistic attempts by NBC(the most liberal \’news\’ station) hold no weight whatsoever. I would not trust NBC to tell me the correct time without some kind of leftist slant.
I find it odd that this car was not stripped, just burned in an open field. Toyotas\’ bring good money on the black market!!!
Gee MUD,
\”I find it odd that this car was not stripped, just burned in an open field. Toyotas\’ bring good money on the black market!!!\”
by MUD,
=======================
Gee MUD,
My wife\’s car was stolen recently stolen and nothing was taken and no damage was done.
The police said some youths had skeleton keys and were taking cars for joy rides.
Was she also a fraud?
MUD,
You never answered my question:
While the jury system is as imperfect as anything else developed by man.
Should private Insurance companies be the sole arbiters of the truth?
Say MUD, Wasn\’t there a Dr. MUD who was falsely accused in the assassination President Lincoln?
PS: I have been a life-long fiscally conservative Republican.
.