=To address your comment Al I must first know what you call the Bible. I say this because many Christ-followers forget that the Torah is generally accepted as part of the Bible (that would be the Old Testament).
I’ve never met a “Christ-follower” who thought this. Rejection of the OT is known as Marcionism, and was condemned early on.
=If you only claim the New Testament, then no, it does not call for killing non-believers. If you follow the entire Bible then try reading what happened to the land of Canaan once the Jews were finally allowed to stop wandering after escaping Egypt. Pretty brutal stuff.
=The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.
=I admit – I find no truck with religion. Any of it. If you want to believe in a higher being, a greater power, a god, goddess, a pantheon – that’s fine with me. I just don’t want any decisions about my life based on anybody else’s fantasies.
No one said anything about your life, the most intimate tenets of which you seem eager to share. Even an atheist or agnostic should be able to understand that the tenets of Islam are what motivate the terrorists and Sharia-imposers. It is not “hijackers of a peaceful religion” with which we have to do; it is the strict practitioners of a violent and vile religion that are the problem. The terrorists and those who exploit women and foreigners in Islamic countries are being consistent, faithful Muslims.
=I also feel that nobody else’s life should be affected by others’ religious beliefs.
Then you should be ready to resist Islam at every turn.
=There are some things I do believe the majority of mankind can agree upon that are not based in religion: don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t intentionally inflict harm upon another, honor your contracts. Even the most secular of societies could agree upon those precepts and they are not based upon religion.
These are all set forth in the Ten Commandments. So to say that these fundamental building blocks of western jurisprudence are not based on religion is absurd.
=If your argument for a law, policy, procedure, or anything else that affects my life, is based in any part on religion the whole thing should be tossed.
So if someone steals your car you wouldn’t want him prosecuted because “Thou shalt not steal” is a religious precept. Gotcha.
=Islam is not the great Satan. It is not an evil religion. Islam is, in fact, the first religion to officially address divorce and property rights for women.
Please see Deuteronomy 24 and Numbers 36. As for women, here’s some unvarnished truth:
“Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
“Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.” (Surah 4:126-)
1 in every 55 verses in the Qur’an incites Muslims to make war on non-Muslims. Some examples of Muslim ecumenism: “Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)
=The Koran lays out alimony, inheritance rights and other rights for women that are not addressed in other religions. If you want an all-encompassing religion you can’t really go wrong with Islam, since everything from contract law, to marriage, divorce, taxes and loans is spelled out in the Koran.
“Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband’s absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!” (Rodwell’s version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
=Islam was also the driving factor behind many of the greatest advancements of mankind – navigation, mathematics, science, philosophy.
Sorry, but this is false. All Islam ever did was expropriate the arts and sciences of the people they conquered. This is why the “golden age of Islam” passed so quickly: after the artisans they enslaved died, they didn’t know how to run anything they had captured.
=Many followers of Islam consider themselves both freed and protected by their religion and don’t feel the need to kill anybody else.
I am not saying that all Muslims are practicing Islam faithfully, I am saying that those who do are dangerous because they are ready to obey the Koran’s injunctions to kill or enslave non-Muslims.
=And just because Malaysia is currently ruled by religious nut-jobs does not make it a theocracy. A theocracy is defined by being ruled by a specific relgious class – not just zealous followers of a religion.
Please forward the dictionary you are citing. Thanks.
=If there are no holy-men involved it is not a theocracy. What they have is a messed-up system that needs to be fixed so it addresses the needs of all citizens. That’s something the populace should see to soon, lest they find it to be too late.
So, from whom do you think the political leaders get their advise for the Islamicization of Malaysia if not the local imams? Do you have any evidence that the local imams are opposed to this process?
=And not that a theocracy is all bad either. If one truly wants to live under the law as laid out in their holy books and by their holy-men you can’t get better than a theocracy. I just don’t want any part of one.
“The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.”
This was marked as lastbat’s comment when it is actually Al’s.
Al, the precepts I laid out were held in common long before they were codified by religion. That’s one reason you find them in pretty much every religion in the world – they are universal human concepts as opposed to religious concepts. Just because something is co-opted by religion does not make it religious, it just means they found something to latch onto. Ever heard of a Christmas tree or the Easter bunny? Ever wonder why Christmas is celebrated near a very important Pagan holiday when, according to what the Bible describes, Jesus was born in the spring? Religions take many things and put spin on them. If your argument can be made secularly, then do so. People have a right to the property they have worked for. Not because some higher power says so, but because among people we can agree that this is right and just.
As for the killing, you said the Bible never said anything about killing non-believers – I just pointed out a place where it did. I’m not the one who said never – you were.
You seem amused or offended, I can’t tell which, by my willingness to describe certain portions of my own beliefs. You implied I was a bigot in one of your earlier posts so I responded to it. It’s called debate. And these are far from the most intimate tenets of my life. You reveal far more about yourself through your posts than I do about me.
What those of us who do not subscribe to religion can easily recognize is that all religions have the distinct probability of driving certain portions of their followers to absolute lunacy. There are other religions out there that have sired some fanatic or other willing to kill for their faith. It is not just Islam that does this. We are dealing with fanatics since the majority of Muslims are not blowing us up. Here’s what I know – there are people out there who have no problem with killing and they should be stopped. I also know that America has done things that caused, or helped cause, these people to hate us and those things should be stopped and/or apologized for (e.g. the whole mess with the Shah in Iran).
Islamic countries set up major universities in their cities and were the first to circumnavigate Africa. Islamic countries came up with the concept of zero. Put this in contrast with the fear of scientific advancement noted in many other countries (most notably European) during that same time-span.
Al, you seem to have a phobia about Islam. I almost wonder if this extends to other religions or if it is centered solely on Islam. I also find it interesting that you think I need to be cured; cured of what exactly? What malady am I suffering from? Sanity? Reason? Lack of delusion? It can’t be confusion, because I am not confused. I wish people whatever they want for themselves, provided it doesn’t harm me and mine. Just because I don’t want to live in a country ruled by religion does not mean I don’t think such places should exist – they should exist for those people that want them. Just because I don’t see a place for religion in my life does not mean I think relgion shouldn’t exist – it should exist for those people that need it or want it. Just because I can think rationally about a people whose beliefs differ from my own does not make me confused, it makes me open to ideas.
I wish you the best in your paranoia, your hatred, your bigotry and your copy of the Koran. May you receive whatever it is you believe you will receive.
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=To address your comment Al I must first know what you call the Bible. I say this because many Christ-followers forget that the Torah is generally accepted as part of the Bible (that would be the Old Testament).
I’ve never met a “Christ-follower” who thought this. Rejection of the OT is known as Marcionism, and was condemned early on.
=If you only claim the New Testament, then no, it does not call for killing non-believers. If you follow the entire Bible then try reading what happened to the land of Canaan once the Jews were finally allowed to stop wandering after escaping Egypt. Pretty brutal stuff.
=The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.
=I admit – I find no truck with religion. Any of it. If you want to believe in a higher being, a greater power, a god, goddess, a pantheon – that’s fine with me. I just don’t want any decisions about my life based on anybody else’s fantasies.
No one said anything about your life, the most intimate tenets of which you seem eager to share. Even an atheist or agnostic should be able to understand that the tenets of Islam are what motivate the terrorists and Sharia-imposers. It is not “hijackers of a peaceful religion” with which we have to do; it is the strict practitioners of a violent and vile religion that are the problem. The terrorists and those who exploit women and foreigners in Islamic countries are being consistent, faithful Muslims.
=I also feel that nobody else’s life should be affected by others’ religious beliefs.
Then you should be ready to resist Islam at every turn.
=There are some things I do believe the majority of mankind can agree upon that are not based in religion: don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t intentionally inflict harm upon another, honor your contracts. Even the most secular of societies could agree upon those precepts and they are not based upon religion.
These are all set forth in the Ten Commandments. So to say that these fundamental building blocks of western jurisprudence are not based on religion is absurd.
=If your argument for a law, policy, procedure, or anything else that affects my life, is based in any part on religion the whole thing should be tossed.
So if someone steals your car you wouldn’t want him prosecuted because “Thou shalt not steal” is a religious precept. Gotcha.
=Islam is not the great Satan. It is not an evil religion. Islam is, in fact, the first religion to officially address divorce and property rights for women.
Please see Deuteronomy 24 and Numbers 36. As for women, here’s some unvarnished truth:
“Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
“Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.” (Surah 4:126-)
1 in every 55 verses in the Qur’an incites Muslims to make war on non-Muslims. Some examples of Muslim ecumenism: “Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)
=The Koran lays out alimony, inheritance rights and other rights for women that are not addressed in other religions. If you want an all-encompassing religion you can’t really go wrong with Islam, since everything from contract law, to marriage, divorce, taxes and loans is spelled out in the Koran.
“Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband’s absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!” (Rodwell’s version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
=Islam was also the driving factor behind many of the greatest advancements of mankind – navigation, mathematics, science, philosophy.
Sorry, but this is false. All Islam ever did was expropriate the arts and sciences of the people they conquered. This is why the “golden age of Islam” passed so quickly: after the artisans they enslaved died, they didn’t know how to run anything they had captured.
=Many followers of Islam consider themselves both freed and protected by their religion and don’t feel the need to kill anybody else.
I am not saying that all Muslims are practicing Islam faithfully, I am saying that those who do are dangerous because they are ready to obey the Koran’s injunctions to kill or enslave non-Muslims.
=And just because Malaysia is currently ruled by religious nut-jobs does not make it a theocracy. A theocracy is defined by being ruled by a specific relgious class – not just zealous followers of a religion.
Please forward the dictionary you are citing. Thanks.
=If there are no holy-men involved it is not a theocracy. What they have is a messed-up system that needs to be fixed so it addresses the needs of all citizens. That’s something the populace should see to soon, lest they find it to be too late.
So, from whom do you think the political leaders get their advise for the Islamicization of Malaysia if not the local imams? Do you have any evidence that the local imams are opposed to this process?
=And not that a theocracy is all bad either. If one truly wants to live under the law as laid out in their holy books and by their holy-men you can’t get better than a theocracy. I just don’t want any part of one.
You are one confused person. Go here everyday until you are cured — http://www.jihadwatch.org.
“The Jews were told to wage war against specific tribes in the region for enumerated offenses against God and man. They weren’t just slaughtering non-Jews willy nilly, and the Gibeonites’ deception was honored as a peace treaty even after the deception was discovered.”
This was marked as lastbat’s comment when it is actually Al’s.
Al, the precepts I laid out were held in common long before they were codified by religion. That’s one reason you find them in pretty much every religion in the world – they are universal human concepts as opposed to religious concepts. Just because something is co-opted by religion does not make it religious, it just means they found something to latch onto. Ever heard of a Christmas tree or the Easter bunny? Ever wonder why Christmas is celebrated near a very important Pagan holiday when, according to what the Bible describes, Jesus was born in the spring? Religions take many things and put spin on them. If your argument can be made secularly, then do so. People have a right to the property they have worked for. Not because some higher power says so, but because among people we can agree that this is right and just.
As for the killing, you said the Bible never said anything about killing non-believers – I just pointed out a place where it did. I’m not the one who said never – you were.
You seem amused or offended, I can’t tell which, by my willingness to describe certain portions of my own beliefs. You implied I was a bigot in one of your earlier posts so I responded to it. It’s called debate. And these are far from the most intimate tenets of my life. You reveal far more about yourself through your posts than I do about me.
What those of us who do not subscribe to religion can easily recognize is that all religions have the distinct probability of driving certain portions of their followers to absolute lunacy. There are other religions out there that have sired some fanatic or other willing to kill for their faith. It is not just Islam that does this. We are dealing with fanatics since the majority of Muslims are not blowing us up. Here’s what I know – there are people out there who have no problem with killing and they should be stopped. I also know that America has done things that caused, or helped cause, these people to hate us and those things should be stopped and/or apologized for (e.g. the whole mess with the Shah in Iran).
Islamic countries set up major universities in their cities and were the first to circumnavigate Africa. Islamic countries came up with the concept of zero. Put this in contrast with the fear of scientific advancement noted in many other countries (most notably European) during that same time-span.
Al, you seem to have a phobia about Islam. I almost wonder if this extends to other religions or if it is centered solely on Islam. I also find it interesting that you think I need to be cured; cured of what exactly? What malady am I suffering from? Sanity? Reason? Lack of delusion? It can’t be confusion, because I am not confused. I wish people whatever they want for themselves, provided it doesn’t harm me and mine. Just because I don’t want to live in a country ruled by religion does not mean I don’t think such places should exist – they should exist for those people that want them. Just because I don’t see a place for religion in my life does not mean I think relgion shouldn’t exist – it should exist for those people that need it or want it. Just because I can think rationally about a people whose beliefs differ from my own does not make me confused, it makes me open to ideas.
I wish you the best in your paranoia, your hatred, your bigotry and your copy of the Koran. May you receive whatever it is you believe you will receive.