Fla. Agent, not sure what you mean by “comparitive negligence suits”, but my understanding is the companies can’t stand PIP – they’re tired of automatic payouts. I’m sorry about the hospitals loss, but they need to adjust – why should FL residents who have coverage elsewhere (like med pay or health insurance) be forced to pay for something they don’t need simply to help the hospitals – are we to care about hospitals or FL residents in general. I completely agree with you about manditory BI, though.
It’s interesting – I’m a migrant agent and agency owner from Alaska and all we hear up there is “how high the rates are” – the answer to our customer’s always being “we have the highest limits of all the states (50/100/25) and we have a much smaller population to pull from”. But, then I quote the same people in my Alaska rating with coverage of Liab 50/100/25 UMBI/PD 50/100/25 and MP 5000 and Florida rating with, as you say Fla. Agent, the minimum PD and PIP w/ high deductible and the Alaska rate often beats the Florida rate. So, you stated before that the “rates were skyrocketing”, yet they seem pretty horribally high right now with really crappy coverage.
By the way, does anyone have an answer for me about why UMPD is not sold in Florida and why the state allows it? What happens if an uninsured driver hits you? If you have collision coverage I guess it could be claimed under that but then doesn’t it go against the wrong person’s record in CLUE? If you don’t have collision, I guess you’re screwed?
Steve, I agree. In fact, from what you’re saying why should we encourage our customer’s to purchase PIP w/ wage loss if they won’t get any anyhow? They may as well exlude it and pay less premium. Speaking of lobbying, does anyone know if the Big I weighed in on this and what they had to say? Did they talk to the governor?
1. If we did away with PIP, thousands of personal injury attorneys would starve. Can’t have that! (S Fl has more personal injury attorneys per capita than anywhere else on the planet. Someone has to support them.
2. The attorney’s lobby beat out the insurance company and doctor’s lobbies. Note that no restrictions were put on attorney fees.
3. Fl. requires that drivers purchase insurance for their medical bills and for denting someone else’s car (but not enough to fix anthing more than a dent) but deos not require them to have insurance if they injure someone else. How ironic, my car is more important than my head!
4. It’s estimated that 1/3 of all S. Fl. drivers have no insurance at all!
5. No one complains about how expensive no fault is. The premium paid for just a $10,000 limit is outrageous.
Out of all the arguments for PIP in Florida, the one that stands out the most is “It helps keep rates down.” Hmmm…so, as I believe it was alluded to earlier, that’s why many (most?) other states in the Union are still able to have lower rates than FL without PIP? I have lived in about 3 or 4 different states, none of which had PIP, and my rates were lower, or the same as here in FL. I don’t have a true apples-to-apples comparison, because I don’t think all limits were the same, but, if anything, they were higher. Bottom line, this PIP is doing nothing for the consumer. Hold the at-fault party responsible. There is always Uninsured/Underinsured coverage that can be chosen in case the at-fault party does not have insurance or does not adequate coverage.
Of course, all of this comes from my point of view as a consumer, not the actuarial side of things.
Florida’s rates are so high because the “trial attorney” assoc. pays more for lobbyists and politicians than any other interest group. True reform would mean most “trial lawyers” would have to either starve or move and they want neither.
Note that the new PIP law contains a schedule of payments for medical procedures but no limitations for attorneys fees. There also is still no limitation on the number of different procedures doctors or chiropracters can bill for.
I have back problems and was going to a chiropracter. I couldn’t lay down so the only thing he could do for me was a vibrating pad with heat. When I saw the long list of other procedures he was billing Aetna for, I protested to no effect. I called Aetna, they said there was nothing they could do – they had to pay what he billed, even if it was fraudulent!
I had to change to a different chiropracter, and had to warn him up front to only bill for what he did. Later, when I had improved to the point where I could lay down, and thus use the stretching machine (great if you have ruptured discs!) this one started adding stuff he didn’t do to what he billed. I had to tell him again, and made him send me a copy whenever he billed Aetna.
And, why in the world would PIP pay for a chiropracter to order an MRI? In this state they do.
There is no real reform in this new program, the same hogs are still sucking from the same trough, our wallets.
Thanks for the feedback on the UMPD question even though it doesn’t answer it – I wonder who we would ask the question “why”?
In Alaska, uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage BI and PD can be purchased separately or together (a consumer could buy BI and reject PD or vice versa). This is a stand alone requirement – there is no change whether you buy collision coverage or not. Any insurance company wanting to do business in AK has to offer either coverage equal to or above the liability BI and PD limit. The state makes this requirement to protect its’ residents from being hit by an uninsured driver and furthermore not to have to worry about it being charged to them on their collision – even if their car is only worth say $500. (not that it’d be worth buying for $500 car after you subtract the average $20 premium and the $250 deductible, but the point is the consumer has the choice).
Nice weigh in, Temblor and Frustrated. Attorneys! Can we just take ’em out back and shot ’em. However, that’s why we should support the Big I – I realize that the attorneys probably have a big force in lobbying, but a unified support of the Big I creates a unified front of opposition to the lobbyists – I wonder, does anyone know if any agents traveled with the Big I group to talk to the Florida legislators about this issue?
The FAIA was lobbying in Tallahassee big time. But the lawyers always outgun us (don’t forget, most of our legislator’s, and our governer, are lawyers. They don’t want to see their bretheren starve.)
UM Phys Dam is included in collision, which will repair the car regardless of fault. The insurer then subrogates against the at fault third party.
Loving your comments CAC, are you from California as I have/had the same questions as you but did not want to ask them. Ned – i hope you were being sarcastic with your delightful post.
Good on paper but passing real benefits to policyholder is questionable. May result in reducing defense cost but open more avenues for Fraud, higher claim cycle time etc.
Its better to have ‘choice No-Fault’ plan.
CALIFORNIA…YUK! No way Nancy, I’m Alaska born/raised but tired of being cold and shoveling snow so glad to be somewhere warm. Except not too crazy about Florida’s insurance laws – pretty backwards to me. Way too many liberals in this state!
In fact, I was thinking about Temblor’s comments about the lawyers making such a fuss after I read today’s article about PIP in the emailed IJ and I’m confused…if PIP was supposed to be so great as to keep auto accident lawsuits out of the courts (as the article indicates) then why are the lawyers fighting so hard to keep PIP? If the payout is automatic, then how are lawyers getting in on this?
You go Ned and Temblor with your sarcasism – I think we’d all have a lot of laughs if we ever met at an insurance convention.
We have updated our privacy policy to be more clear and meet the new requirements of the GDPR. By continuing to use our site, you accept our revised Privacy Policy.
Ned, that was great – you made me laugh.
Fla. Agent, not sure what you mean by “comparitive negligence suits”, but my understanding is the companies can’t stand PIP – they’re tired of automatic payouts. I’m sorry about the hospitals loss, but they need to adjust – why should FL residents who have coverage elsewhere (like med pay or health insurance) be forced to pay for something they don’t need simply to help the hospitals – are we to care about hospitals or FL residents in general. I completely agree with you about manditory BI, though.
It’s interesting – I’m a migrant agent and agency owner from Alaska and all we hear up there is “how high the rates are” – the answer to our customer’s always being “we have the highest limits of all the states (50/100/25) and we have a much smaller population to pull from”. But, then I quote the same people in my Alaska rating with coverage of Liab 50/100/25 UMBI/PD 50/100/25 and MP 5000 and Florida rating with, as you say Fla. Agent, the minimum PD and PIP w/ high deductible and the Alaska rate often beats the Florida rate. So, you stated before that the “rates were skyrocketing”, yet they seem pretty horribally high right now with really crappy coverage.
By the way, does anyone have an answer for me about why UMPD is not sold in Florida and why the state allows it? What happens if an uninsured driver hits you? If you have collision coverage I guess it could be claimed under that but then doesn’t it go against the wrong person’s record in CLUE? If you don’t have collision, I guess you’re screwed?
Steve, I agree. In fact, from what you’re saying why should we encourage our customer’s to purchase PIP w/ wage loss if they won’t get any anyhow? They may as well exlude it and pay less premium. Speaking of lobbying, does anyone know if the Big I weighed in on this and what they had to say? Did they talk to the governor?
A couple of ironies here:
1. If we did away with PIP, thousands of personal injury attorneys would starve. Can’t have that! (S Fl has more personal injury attorneys per capita than anywhere else on the planet. Someone has to support them.
2. The attorney’s lobby beat out the insurance company and doctor’s lobbies. Note that no restrictions were put on attorney fees.
3. Fl. requires that drivers purchase insurance for their medical bills and for denting someone else’s car (but not enough to fix anthing more than a dent) but deos not require them to have insurance if they injure someone else. How ironic, my car is more important than my head!
4. It’s estimated that 1/3 of all S. Fl. drivers have no insurance at all!
5. No one complains about how expensive no fault is. The premium paid for just a $10,000 limit is outrageous.
Out of all the arguments for PIP in Florida, the one that stands out the most is “It helps keep rates down.” Hmmm…so, as I believe it was alluded to earlier, that’s why many (most?) other states in the Union are still able to have lower rates than FL without PIP? I have lived in about 3 or 4 different states, none of which had PIP, and my rates were lower, or the same as here in FL. I don’t have a true apples-to-apples comparison, because I don’t think all limits were the same, but, if anything, they were higher. Bottom line, this PIP is doing nothing for the consumer. Hold the at-fault party responsible. There is always Uninsured/Underinsured coverage that can be chosen in case the at-fault party does not have insurance or does not adequate coverage.
Of course, all of this comes from my point of view as a consumer, not the actuarial side of things.
Florida’s rates are so high because the “trial attorney” assoc. pays more for lobbyists and politicians than any other interest group. True reform would mean most “trial lawyers” would have to either starve or move and they want neither.
Note that the new PIP law contains a schedule of payments for medical procedures but no limitations for attorneys fees. There also is still no limitation on the number of different procedures doctors or chiropracters can bill for.
I have back problems and was going to a chiropracter. I couldn’t lay down so the only thing he could do for me was a vibrating pad with heat. When I saw the long list of other procedures he was billing Aetna for, I protested to no effect. I called Aetna, they said there was nothing they could do – they had to pay what he billed, even if it was fraudulent!
I had to change to a different chiropracter, and had to warn him up front to only bill for what he did. Later, when I had improved to the point where I could lay down, and thus use the stretching machine (great if you have ruptured discs!) this one started adding stuff he didn’t do to what he billed. I had to tell him again, and made him send me a copy whenever he billed Aetna.
And, why in the world would PIP pay for a chiropracter to order an MRI? In this state they do.
There is no real reform in this new program, the same hogs are still sucking from the same trough, our wallets.
CAC: I can’t tell you why FL doesn’t have UMPD, but most states don’t require it.
I’m not sure on this part, but I believe that in some states that do have UMPD, you can’t get it if you also have collision
I guess the feeling is if you don’t buy collision either your car isn’t worth much or you will pay for the damage yourself.
Thanks for the feedback on the UMPD question even though it doesn’t answer it – I wonder who we would ask the question “why”?
In Alaska, uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage BI and PD can be purchased separately or together (a consumer could buy BI and reject PD or vice versa). This is a stand alone requirement – there is no change whether you buy collision coverage or not. Any insurance company wanting to do business in AK has to offer either coverage equal to or above the liability BI and PD limit. The state makes this requirement to protect its’ residents from being hit by an uninsured driver and furthermore not to have to worry about it being charged to them on their collision – even if their car is only worth say $500. (not that it’d be worth buying for $500 car after you subtract the average $20 premium and the $250 deductible, but the point is the consumer has the choice).
Nice weigh in, Temblor and Frustrated. Attorneys! Can we just take ’em out back and shot ’em. However, that’s why we should support the Big I – I realize that the attorneys probably have a big force in lobbying, but a unified support of the Big I creates a unified front of opposition to the lobbyists – I wonder, does anyone know if any agents traveled with the Big I group to talk to the Florida legislators about this issue?
The FAIA was lobbying in Tallahassee big time. But the lawyers always outgun us (don’t forget, most of our legislator’s, and our governer, are lawyers. They don’t want to see their bretheren starve.)
UM Phys Dam is included in collision, which will repair the car regardless of fault. The insurer then subrogates against the at fault third party.
Loving your comments CAC, are you from California as I have/had the same questions as you but did not want to ask them. Ned – i hope you were being sarcastic with your delightful post.
Good on paper but passing real benefits to policyholder is questionable. May result in reducing defense cost but open more avenues for Fraud, higher claim cycle time etc.
Its better to have ‘choice No-Fault’ plan.
CALIFORNIA…YUK! No way Nancy, I’m Alaska born/raised but tired of being cold and shoveling snow so glad to be somewhere warm. Except not too crazy about Florida’s insurance laws – pretty backwards to me. Way too many liberals in this state!
In fact, I was thinking about Temblor’s comments about the lawyers making such a fuss after I read today’s article about PIP in the emailed IJ and I’m confused…if PIP was supposed to be so great as to keep auto accident lawsuits out of the courts (as the article indicates) then why are the lawyers fighting so hard to keep PIP? If the payout is automatic, then how are lawyers getting in on this?
You go Ned and Temblor with your sarcasism – I think we’d all have a lot of laughs if we ever met at an insurance convention.