This web site is a disgrace, like the whole concept we\’re discussing. There was a horrific world war with 50 million killed, whole nations were utterly ruined, cities bombed to the stone age, and these people are trying to collect on thousand dollar insurance policies their great-grandparents lost sixty years ago. It\’s pathetic.
Chip, it is a disgrace but we must never forget what occurred in WW2. The German Nazi government kept meticulous records regarding who entered what camp, dates, occupations, etc. Some of these records have been opened, many have been kept sealed for various political and economic reasons. Anne Franks\’ name is seen on a log from Auschwitz.
The vast majority of the claims regarding AG are for life insurance. Since the various European governments stopped existing during WW2 – Italian, French, etc – their respective administrations stopped processing things like death records. Without a death certificate you can\’t get a life insurance payment. Since Nazi camp records were sealed for so long millions of insured people and BILLIONS of dollars of legitimate claims were never paid. AG has lots of working capital that should have been paid out in the late 1940\’s.
An act of war exclusion is much more recent than WW2 and does not apply to life policies. If you die, the claim gets paid.
As hard as it is to imagine in 2007 there are still many international companies around that profited significantly from WW2 and (in my opinion) should have either paid more in reparations or should not exist. Many Swiss banks have significant assets that belonged to Jewish victims; companies like Krupp used slave labor to make immense profits; insurance companies like AG never had to pay on claims due to political events that favored them.
It\’s now 2007. All but the very youngest survivors of the Holocaust are now dead. It\’s pretty late to try and attend to this now and I\’m not sure of the value of keeping up this fight.
More than 6 million innocents perished in Nazi death camps. All classes – poor, middle class, wealthy. Many had moved assets out of Germany to other countries. Many had life insurance.
I have one final comment based on Chip\’s last comment of disgust and Kevin Raz\’s.
Putting the Holocaust Reparations into the larger context of global societal evolution and comparative value systems, the reparations are an important step forward by Western Civilization in upholding the value of human life & anti-genocide and in attaching consequences to evil, both individually and corporately as a society, including businesses — in holding itself as a civilization to it\’s own high standards that it so often falls short of; generally and foundationally, Judeo-Christian standards.
While far far far from perfect or guiltless, because of it\’s foundational and cultural heritage of Judeo-Christian values, philosphies, understanding of people and life, and so forth — Western Europe produced the Magna Carta; the Bill of Rights; the concept of the UN (though in practice, that institution seems less than it could be); various life-affirming and people-affirming theologies; scientific discoveries & technologies; and the womens\’ and ecological movements. Even gays and lesbians are able to agitate or struggle for a voice and respect within our Western societies without much fear of violence or death (I\’m not advocating it; merely commenting). Western Civ, through the agitation and campaigning of certain Christians, eventually abolished slavery.
In contrast, non-Western societies and religions still practice slavery, subjugate women in brutal ways, and treat non-members as less than human or at least as less deserving of human and economic rights and respect. Just open a newspaper or turn on the TV or surf the Net.
In this context, I think the reparations represent Western Civilization trying to hold itself to it\’s own higher standards. Western Civ produced the Nazis – a evil and vile philosophy or way of understanding and organizing the world. But then Western Civ stood up to the evil of the Nazis and Japanese Imperialism (with it\’s dehumanizing, brutalities, crimes against humanity, slavery, and death camps).
In conclusion, two points: 1. people can be evil and can set-up systems that destroy others. 2. Fortunately many people from from all societies around the world are striving toward a better world: one more humane and ecologically sustainable. In this context, holding currently existing companies that profited from the Nazis\’ systematic identification and slaughter of specific types or groups of people – (Jews, gypsies, certain Christians, mentally ill or sick/crippled people, and others) is a huge step forward in world history and the evolution of humanity. I believe that you can never truly right a wrong, but you can address wrongs or evils to introduce consequences or balance. That is what the Holocaust Reparations seem to try to achieve.
Chip: I don\’t have the time to continue trying to help fill in your gaps in knowledge and understanding. Incidentally, in regard to your coment about the UN, Woodrow Wilson, a US President – not a communist, was the first or one of the key people after WW1 who saw the need for a global forum before running out to the killing fields.
You can\’t inform me because you are clueless. My questions were rhetorical because I know the answers. You don\’t have time to write back to demonstrate that you know the answers, but your original post was 434 words long.
The League of Nations worked out great, didn\’t it? Assigning backbreaking debt on Germany as *revenge* for WWI worked out great, didn\’t it? Alger Hiss, the first general secretary of the UN during its founding meetings in San Francisco was a Communist, wasn\’t he?
What makes you think it is only Jews looking for their rightful due on insurance? Don\’t you realize there were Catholics, Lutherans, Methodist, Gypsies, the mentally handicapped etc, etc. who were slaughtered. Yes 6 million people died but they were not all Jews and even if they were does that make it right that they can\’t get closure? Why shouldn\’t the children and grandchildren of the people slaughtered by the Nazi\’s get their just due. You want to bring the whole world\’s wrongs into this one insurance company. Get a grip! This is one case and one court trying to bring right out of many. If you are so interested in changing the world start with yourself and your own surroundings. A small stone dropped in the waters will create ripples that spread. Create a ripple and make something or someone better and watch it spread. I\’ll pray for you. Peace.
It will be interesting to see how this is paid out – if anything is ever paid.
Let\’s say that someone brings evidence of a $5,000 policy purchased in 1935. How much would have to be paid on the claim?
The $5,000 face amount would not seem just.
Add simple or compound interest?
Adjust for time? Using the US CPI that would be about $71,000 in 2005 dollars.
I think this would probably bankrupt AG completely.
All this should have been handled back in the 40\’s or 50\’s. Would have been easier and less costly and would have had some connection to what had transpired.
Financial justice must be done on this.
One more thought: someone had posted a comment (since removed, I think) about others from WW2 who deserved reparations. Certainly a strong argument can be made for that but we are not talking about reparations, this is about payouts on purchased life insurance products that were foiled by politics.
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The Nazi\’s kept meticulous records. Names, ages, birthplace, physical discriptions, how they died. They were cold, inhumane and frightenly efficient.
This web site is a disgrace, like the whole concept we\’re discussing. There was a horrific world war with 50 million killed, whole nations were utterly ruined, cities bombed to the stone age, and these people are trying to collect on thousand dollar insurance policies their great-grandparents lost sixty years ago. It\’s pathetic.
Chip, it is a disgrace but we must never forget what occurred in WW2. The German Nazi government kept meticulous records regarding who entered what camp, dates, occupations, etc. Some of these records have been opened, many have been kept sealed for various political and economic reasons. Anne Franks\’ name is seen on a log from Auschwitz.
The vast majority of the claims regarding AG are for life insurance. Since the various European governments stopped existing during WW2 – Italian, French, etc – their respective administrations stopped processing things like death records. Without a death certificate you can\’t get a life insurance payment. Since Nazi camp records were sealed for so long millions of insured people and BILLIONS of dollars of legitimate claims were never paid. AG has lots of working capital that should have been paid out in the late 1940\’s.
An act of war exclusion is much more recent than WW2 and does not apply to life policies. If you die, the claim gets paid.
As hard as it is to imagine in 2007 there are still many international companies around that profited significantly from WW2 and (in my opinion) should have either paid more in reparations or should not exist. Many Swiss banks have significant assets that belonged to Jewish victims; companies like Krupp used slave labor to make immense profits; insurance companies like AG never had to pay on claims due to political events that favored them.
It\’s now 2007. All but the very youngest survivors of the Holocaust are now dead. It\’s pretty late to try and attend to this now and I\’m not sure of the value of keeping up this fight.
More than 6 million innocents perished in Nazi death camps. All classes – poor, middle class, wealthy. Many had moved assets out of Germany to other countries. Many had life insurance.
With Remembrance,
Kevin Rasmussen
I have one final comment based on Chip\’s last comment of disgust and Kevin Raz\’s.
Putting the Holocaust Reparations into the larger context of global societal evolution and comparative value systems, the reparations are an important step forward by Western Civilization in upholding the value of human life & anti-genocide and in attaching consequences to evil, both individually and corporately as a society, including businesses — in holding itself as a civilization to it\’s own high standards that it so often falls short of; generally and foundationally, Judeo-Christian standards.
While far far far from perfect or guiltless, because of it\’s foundational and cultural heritage of Judeo-Christian values, philosphies, understanding of people and life, and so forth — Western Europe produced the Magna Carta; the Bill of Rights; the concept of the UN (though in practice, that institution seems less than it could be); various life-affirming and people-affirming theologies; scientific discoveries & technologies; and the womens\’ and ecological movements. Even gays and lesbians are able to agitate or struggle for a voice and respect within our Western societies without much fear of violence or death (I\’m not advocating it; merely commenting). Western Civ, through the agitation and campaigning of certain Christians, eventually abolished slavery.
In contrast, non-Western societies and religions still practice slavery, subjugate women in brutal ways, and treat non-members as less than human or at least as less deserving of human and economic rights and respect. Just open a newspaper or turn on the TV or surf the Net.
In this context, I think the reparations represent Western Civilization trying to hold itself to it\’s own higher standards. Western Civ produced the Nazis – a evil and vile philosophy or way of understanding and organizing the world. But then Western Civ stood up to the evil of the Nazis and Japanese Imperialism (with it\’s dehumanizing, brutalities, crimes against humanity, slavery, and death camps).
In conclusion, two points: 1. people can be evil and can set-up systems that destroy others. 2. Fortunately many people from from all societies around the world are striving toward a better world: one more humane and ecologically sustainable. In this context, holding currently existing companies that profited from the Nazis\’ systematic identification and slaughter of specific types or groups of people – (Jews, gypsies, certain Christians, mentally ill or sick/crippled people, and others) is a huge step forward in world history and the evolution of humanity. I believe that you can never truly right a wrong, but you can address wrongs or evils to introduce consequences or balance. That is what the Holocaust Reparations seem to try to achieve.
Chip: I don\’t have the time to continue trying to help fill in your gaps in knowledge and understanding. Incidentally, in regard to your coment about the UN, Woodrow Wilson, a US President – not a communist, was the first or one of the key people after WW1 who saw the need for a global forum before running out to the killing fields.
You can\’t inform me because you are clueless. My questions were rhetorical because I know the answers. You don\’t have time to write back to demonstrate that you know the answers, but your original post was 434 words long.
The League of Nations worked out great, didn\’t it? Assigning backbreaking debt on Germany as *revenge* for WWI worked out great, didn\’t it? Alger Hiss, the first general secretary of the UN during its founding meetings in San Francisco was a Communist, wasn\’t he?
Chip,
What makes you think it is only Jews looking for their rightful due on insurance? Don\’t you realize there were Catholics, Lutherans, Methodist, Gypsies, the mentally handicapped etc, etc. who were slaughtered. Yes 6 million people died but they were not all Jews and even if they were does that make it right that they can\’t get closure? Why shouldn\’t the children and grandchildren of the people slaughtered by the Nazi\’s get their just due. You want to bring the whole world\’s wrongs into this one insurance company. Get a grip! This is one case and one court trying to bring right out of many. If you are so interested in changing the world start with yourself and your own surroundings. A small stone dropped in the waters will create ripples that spread. Create a ripple and make something or someone better and watch it spread. I\’ll pray for you. Peace.
It will be interesting to see how this is paid out – if anything is ever paid.
Let\’s say that someone brings evidence of a $5,000 policy purchased in 1935. How much would have to be paid on the claim?
The $5,000 face amount would not seem just.
Add simple or compound interest?
Adjust for time? Using the US CPI that would be about $71,000 in 2005 dollars.
I think this would probably bankrupt AG completely.
All this should have been handled back in the 40\’s or 50\’s. Would have been easier and less costly and would have had some connection to what had transpired.
Financial justice must be done on this.
One more thought: someone had posted a comment (since removed, I think) about others from WW2 who deserved reparations. Certainly a strong argument can be made for that but we are not talking about reparations, this is about payouts on purchased life insurance products that were foiled by politics.
Kevin Rasmussen