Jyslin, thank you for the medical dissertation; however, the basic fact is that the science is still out on physical reasons for a pyschological decision. You may want to also report on the psychological success rate of completed transgenders and how there is little to no improvement following the transition. As respects tolerance, you may confuse that with acceptance. I believe we can all tolerate behaviors to a certain point but acceptance of the atypical or abnormal is unattainable and braying at people to accept the unacceptable does nothing for your cause. Discrimination is also a word that it over used. Everyday activity means we all discriminate between choices. The world cannot be discrimination free. In this case, I think that the women in the workplace have every right to discriminate and not allow an anatomical male to share their restroom. I hope you can summon up some of your tolerance for their choice.
@John… I hate to break this to you but thereès more then one of us in the workplace.. and assumption about focusing on my sex for the rest of my life is also misguided. I focus on the same things everyone else does, raising my children, Education, work and just living.
@Tom … the success of a transgendered indvidual is directly related to the experiences during transition, Did the lose thier job, family friends,church. How were they treated in public… it all comes down to the indvidual. Unfortunatly most people react badly or act out of ignorance and you get the result most psychologist report. The batroom issue is tricky one because part of our real life test. It helps us intergrate into society so we dont stand out. We need to learn how to interact in a public setting. I do the same thing every other woman does when she goes into a public washroom, thier business, check thier make up and hair wash and go. Second reason is for safety … if I went into a mens washroom how long do you figure it would be before some good ol boy tries to teach me a leeson and I end up on the other end of a beat down. The fact is I am female born with a birth defect and I will use the appropriate washroom for my identified gender as diagnoised by a medical professional.
This suit against macys goes deeper then the washroom issue.. a person has the right to go work and not be bullied or harassed regardless of thier race, gender or sexual idenitiy period.
Joslyn, I can understand your dilema but it is not for society to bend to your will or, for that matter, every whim of an individual. In order to promote a safe and orderly society, norms must be followed and asking the majority to succomb to every wish of a very very very small minority, it 180 degrees out of phase. As a society, we should not tolerate “beat downs” and in fact have numerous laws to handle those situation. If you are asking not to feel uncomfortable, then you must also think with the other side of your brain on how “uncomfortable” the women feel. I would ask that you consider the whole situation rather than a narrowly defined personal “want” driven by your individual needs. As for not standing out, I think you may be engaging in a bit of self delusion as most male to female transgenders I have been acquainted with do not easily blend into the background. Please remember that there is no “right” to be free from fear, anxiety, or other discomfort. I wish you all the best in solving your problem but there are obstacles which can’t be solved by foisting them on everyone else.
Although I am sadden by the comments of some of you, but not surprised because fear of the unknown has been at the core country since it’s birth. God forbide that you would be asked to show compasion to someone that does not look or behave like yourselves. I don’t know anything about Transgenders, except that they are human beings, and should be treated as such. I just hope that no one you love ever comes home to you and let you know that they feel trapped in their own bodies.
Eady, fear of the unknown has nothing to do with this situation. It seems you believe that emotion trumps common sense and reason. You can’t simply walk away from a discussion of an issue claimig the moral high ground because you are more empathetic than everyone around you. Society has to draw lines somewhere or anarchy will reign. You chose to make your lines thin and less bright than others, but that doesn’t advance the discussion. You must draw a line somewhere. I am sure you don’t think that children should be able to marry at age 10, or that a gay father should be able to marry his son. So you must admit that you do draw lines that discriminate based on certain facts and activities.
Tom I’m not asking society to bend to me but the truth is most places have a men or womens washroom so whats my choice. By your logic we should not accomidate or bend to those with physical disabilies. For society to evolve and change we need to accept theres more the one variation. If we didn’t homosexuality would still be a criminal . All non whites would be Segragated. And women would be in the kitchen and not allowed to vote. Face the facts its time for.society to grow up.
Tom I’m not asking society to bend to me but the truth is most places have a men or womens washroom so whats my choice. By your logic we should not accomidate or bend to those with physical disabilies. For society to evolve and change we need to accept theres more the one variation. If we didn’t homosexuality would still be a criminal . All non whites would be Segragated. And women would be in the kitchen and not allowed to vote. Face the facts its time for.society to grow up.
Polyglot, I don’t belive that I am taking a moral high ground nor do I believe that I am better or brighter than the average person. You can’t seem to differentiate the difference between Transgenders and Homosexuals which makes you, not so bright. Children are to be protected from any preditors because they are defenseless. I don’t believe that someone choosing to change their sex will create anarchy. What has this person done to you? How has this person harmed you? Fear has everything to do with your contempt for someone you have never met.
Joslyn, I have heard that argument before but it fails on an easily differentiating fact, physical disability, or, in the racial example, an easily discernable color of skin. You can’t bootstrap a civil rights argument for gay rights by using these analogies. For me the argument is more about tolerance and less about acceptance. I can be tolerant of certain behavior but not of accepting them as being normal. And, I can be intolerant of people physically acting out agaisnt the gay, lesbian and transgender people. I can’t be convinced that abnormal is normal,that unnatural is natural, and atypical is typical. Thus, I can tolerate civil unions but I cannot accept gay marriage as a normal progression of that tolerance. Again, I wish you well and I think it is time to move on as you have made your points and we can depart agreeing to disagree.
Rachel, if it makes you feel better to grant yourself total wisdom and label all others with perjoratives, I can understand the basis for your sadness. In your quest for self validation, you have missed the doughnut by looking through the hole. Your analysis lacks the balance needed to advance this discussion. Simply giving any opposite point a view a dimissive waive of the left hand because of perceived prejudice does nothing to dignify your point or resolve your predicament. I end this discussion frustrated and perplexed.
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Jyslin, thank you for the medical dissertation; however, the basic fact is that the science is still out on physical reasons for a pyschological decision. You may want to also report on the psychological success rate of completed transgenders and how there is little to no improvement following the transition. As respects tolerance, you may confuse that with acceptance. I believe we can all tolerate behaviors to a certain point but acceptance of the atypical or abnormal is unattainable and braying at people to accept the unacceptable does nothing for your cause. Discrimination is also a word that it over used. Everyday activity means we all discriminate between choices. The world cannot be discrimination free. In this case, I think that the women in the workplace have every right to discriminate and not allow an anatomical male to share their restroom. I hope you can summon up some of your tolerance for their choice.
@John… I hate to break this to you but thereès more then one of us in the workplace.. and assumption about focusing on my sex for the rest of my life is also misguided. I focus on the same things everyone else does, raising my children, Education, work and just living.
@Tom … the success of a transgendered indvidual is directly related to the experiences during transition, Did the lose thier job, family friends,church. How were they treated in public… it all comes down to the indvidual. Unfortunatly most people react badly or act out of ignorance and you get the result most psychologist report. The batroom issue is tricky one because part of our real life test. It helps us intergrate into society so we dont stand out. We need to learn how to interact in a public setting. I do the same thing every other woman does when she goes into a public washroom, thier business, check thier make up and hair wash and go. Second reason is for safety … if I went into a mens washroom how long do you figure it would be before some good ol boy tries to teach me a leeson and I end up on the other end of a beat down. The fact is I am female born with a birth defect and I will use the appropriate washroom for my identified gender as diagnoised by a medical professional.
This suit against macys goes deeper then the washroom issue.. a person has the right to go work and not be bullied or harassed regardless of thier race, gender or sexual idenitiy period.
Joslyn, I can understand your dilema but it is not for society to bend to your will or, for that matter, every whim of an individual. In order to promote a safe and orderly society, norms must be followed and asking the majority to succomb to every wish of a very very very small minority, it 180 degrees out of phase. As a society, we should not tolerate “beat downs” and in fact have numerous laws to handle those situation. If you are asking not to feel uncomfortable, then you must also think with the other side of your brain on how “uncomfortable” the women feel. I would ask that you consider the whole situation rather than a narrowly defined personal “want” driven by your individual needs. As for not standing out, I think you may be engaging in a bit of self delusion as most male to female transgenders I have been acquainted with do not easily blend into the background. Please remember that there is no “right” to be free from fear, anxiety, or other discomfort. I wish you all the best in solving your problem but there are obstacles which can’t be solved by foisting them on everyone else.
Although I am sadden by the comments of some of you, but not surprised because fear of the unknown has been at the core country since it’s birth. God forbide that you would be asked to show compasion to someone that does not look or behave like yourselves. I don’t know anything about Transgenders, except that they are human beings, and should be treated as such. I just hope that no one you love ever comes home to you and let you know that they feel trapped in their own bodies.
Eady, fear of the unknown has nothing to do with this situation. It seems you believe that emotion trumps common sense and reason. You can’t simply walk away from a discussion of an issue claimig the moral high ground because you are more empathetic than everyone around you. Society has to draw lines somewhere or anarchy will reign. You chose to make your lines thin and less bright than others, but that doesn’t advance the discussion. You must draw a line somewhere. I am sure you don’t think that children should be able to marry at age 10, or that a gay father should be able to marry his son. So you must admit that you do draw lines that discriminate based on certain facts and activities.
Tom I’m not asking society to bend to me but the truth is most places have a men or womens washroom so whats my choice. By your logic we should not accomidate or bend to those with physical disabilies. For society to evolve and change we need to accept theres more the one variation. If we didn’t homosexuality would still be a criminal . All non whites would be Segragated. And women would be in the kitchen and not allowed to vote. Face the facts its time for.society to grow up.
Tom I’m not asking society to bend to me but the truth is most places have a men or womens washroom so whats my choice. By your logic we should not accomidate or bend to those with physical disabilies. For society to evolve and change we need to accept theres more the one variation. If we didn’t homosexuality would still be a criminal . All non whites would be Segragated. And women would be in the kitchen and not allowed to vote. Face the facts its time for.society to grow up.
Polyglot, I don’t belive that I am taking a moral high ground nor do I believe that I am better or brighter than the average person. You can’t seem to differentiate the difference between Transgenders and Homosexuals which makes you, not so bright. Children are to be protected from any preditors because they are defenseless. I don’t believe that someone choosing to change their sex will create anarchy. What has this person done to you? How has this person harmed you? Fear has everything to do with your contempt for someone you have never met.
Joslyn, I have heard that argument before but it fails on an easily differentiating fact, physical disability, or, in the racial example, an easily discernable color of skin. You can’t bootstrap a civil rights argument for gay rights by using these analogies. For me the argument is more about tolerance and less about acceptance. I can be tolerant of certain behavior but not of accepting them as being normal. And, I can be intolerant of people physically acting out agaisnt the gay, lesbian and transgender people. I can’t be convinced that abnormal is normal,that unnatural is natural, and atypical is typical. Thus, I can tolerate civil unions but I cannot accept gay marriage as a normal progression of that tolerance. Again, I wish you well and I think it is time to move on as you have made your points and we can depart agreeing to disagree.
Rachel, if it makes you feel better to grant yourself total wisdom and label all others with perjoratives, I can understand the basis for your sadness. In your quest for self validation, you have missed the doughnut by looking through the hole. Your analysis lacks the balance needed to advance this discussion. Simply giving any opposite point a view a dimissive waive of the left hand because of perceived prejudice does nothing to dignify your point or resolve your predicament. I end this discussion frustrated and perplexed.