We use to call it \”key man\” insurance. Now the loopy judge calls this a uninsurable interest situation.
Good grief. Stupid judge and greedy friggin attorneys.
You should really try not jumping to conclusions. No one said \”Key man\” coverage is not okay, but these employees were not key employees, they were clerks and cashiers. Companies can still insure the higher ups, it\’s just that WalMart or any other business doesn\’t have an insurable interest in their minimum wage, expendible work force, who were the ones covered under these policies.
Sure, while we are at it we can sue both sets of your grandparents for having your parents. Let\’s also include the priest that married your parents in the lawsuit and the manufacturer of the suit and wedding gown that they wore on thier wedding day…
And if you say they bought thier wedding clothes at Walmart, we\’ll throw in a complementary steak knife set…
The issue at hand is fallout from so-called \”dead janitor\” or \”dead peasant\” life insurance programs (COLI plans). The name is not unfair. These were programs designed for large companies as a tax-minimization/evasion plan, and the IRS has responded vigorously with prosecution in many cases to end such plans and/or recover back taxes. Still, many plans have ended, many continue. They are by now just plain illegal in many jurisdictions.
One risk of willful continuance of a COLI plan is the sort of lawsuit at hand.
The Oklahoma courts have ruled these plans violate public policy based on the insured interest aspect and so Walmart must pay. Good.
As for Walmart being blamed for everything–this is not a completely irrational response. Walmart first destroyed the local Mom and Pop stores throughout rural and small town America. They then destroyed a large part of America\’s manufacturing capacity by aggressively forcing vendors to switch plants to China. They have bankrupted many small manufacturers and vendors through aggressive pricing demands as well as contracts and risk management recoveries. (If you think you are lucky to have a big Walmart contract as a vendor, you may have just arranged your own business failure in a few years).
Walmart also does not provide employee benefits to most of its workforce so it is indirectly taxing all of us when these uninsured have to use the public clinics and hospitals. Those Walmart \”low prices\” are in substantial part an illusion–Walmart is dumping on us by not providing benefits and by destroying so much of the taxable base within our economy–such as would come from small stores, distributors and manufacturers. Further, Walmart\’s actions have led to a large trade imbalance and increasing US debt. This in turn affects our Federal taxes as well as our interest rates. We all pay higher taxes and interest rates because of these great low prices. As Homer would say: \”Doh!\”
Same thing with petroleum prices–they\’re not $1 to $3 dollars a gallon. They\’re that plus the projection of American military force throughout the world. Think about how much better and how much more worthy a job the US military would be able to do without having to secure \”our oil\” under \”their sand\” so we can drive our obscene gas hogs.
It\’s all a balloon–push in here, it goes out there. Markets are great. Unregulated markets produce all this mess. Regulated markets are a key feature of Western societies. Time for the pendulum to swing back some.
Sure not every deail of this answer is correct–but I\’m trying to keep informed instead of watching Fox News or the latest CNN Nancy Grace crime scandal or sitcoms…you know, what many if most American used to do.
Enjoy your next trip to Walmart and the gas pump–hey they\’ve got those too! Save! Save! Save! Pay! Pay! Pay!
* Forces its own workers to labor \”off the clock\” without pay
* Uses overseas sweatshop labor to manufacture its corporate brand clothing
* Sells knock-off and counterfeit merchandise that misleads and confuses its customers
* Destroys acres of environmentally sensitive lands to build new Wal-Marts, close to existing Wal-Marts that will be closed
* Has eliminated all competition in many towns across the U.S. by illegally lowering prices below wholesale
* Has forced the movement of thousands of manufacturing jobs out of the U.S.
* Calls \”full-time\” 28 hours per week and pays wages so low that many of its employees qualify — and accept — welfare payments
* Demands millions of dollars in tax breaks to locate in communities all over the U.S., while it earns billions of dollars in profits.
Source: The Case Against WalMart by Al Norman
PS: also discriminates against women – one of the largest class action lawsuits ever!
The previous message was brought to you by your wonderful Democratic Party. Now you know that you are the cause of all of the problems in the world. If you would just live in a tent and ride a bicycle, the world would be a better place.
Your point is well-taken regarding \”dead janitor\” policies. Someone else had remarked that these were key man policies which I took as an informed response.
However, you said: \”As for Walmart being blamed for everything–this is not a completely irrational response. Walmart first destroyed the local Mom and Pop stores throughout rural and small town America.\”
Should Henry Ford be blamed for putting buggy whip makers out of business? If mom and pop hardware stores want to charge more for hammers and nails than Wal-Mart, am I obligated to pay more?
Sam Walton put his stores in rural areas where companies like Sears and Wards would not go. He tapped a market that was there to be tapped (and eager not to have to drive an hour to shop), assuming the risk and expense on his own, and got rich. Is that not the American way – build a better mouse trap?
You said: \”They then destroyed a large part of America\’s manufacturing capacity by aggressively forcing vendors to switch plants to China.\”
We have basically zero unemployment. If this statement were true, we would have much higher unemployment. Our economy was being referred to as \”post industrial\” back in the \’70\’s when e.g. steel mills were closing and moving to Japan and Korea, which I don\’t think Wal-Mart had anything to do with.
You said: \”They have bankrupted many small manufacturers and vendors through aggressive pricing demands as well as contracts and risk management recoveries. (If you think you are lucky to have a big Walmart contract as a vendor, you may have just arranged your own business failure in a few years).\”
As with Vlassic, but A.) no one had a gun to anyone\’s head, and B.) it was not Wal-Mart\’s intention to put suppliers out of business, was it? How would that have benefited Wal-Mart? Will they be happy to have suppliers that control monopolies in goods?
You said: \”Walmart also does not provide employee benefits to most of its workforce so it is indirectly taxing all of us when these uninsured have to use the public clinics and hospitals.\”
False on several levels. First, it is not the duty of any employer to provide health benefits. Second, most Wal-Mart employees are part-timers AND have health insurance through a family member such as a parent or spouse, while the others have insurance through Wal-Mart. Third, \”indirectly taxing all of us\” is baloney since, again, no employer has the innate duty to insure employees, so no employer can transfer a duty it does not have, and finally, it is the proliferation of government insurance programs that have caused the over-regulation of, and hyper-demand for, health services that have combined to drive up health costs. I would go so far as to say that employer-provided health insurance has largely contributed to spiraling health care costs as well. It\’s supply and demand, you know, and when the demand outstrips the supply we have spiraling costs, sometimes followed by shortages.
You said: \”Those Walmart \’low prices\’ are in substantial part an illusion–Walmart is dumping on us by not providing benefits and by destroying so much of the taxable base within our economy–such as would come from small stores, distributors and manufacturers.\”
Wrong for the same reasons cited above, plus, do inefficient businesses result in higher government revenues? If it did, should we encourage inefficiency? Some economists credit Wal-Mart with helping to suppress inflation. If that is even remotely true, then at what cost do we patronize inefficient business?
You said: \”Further, Walmart\’s actions have led to a large trade imbalance and increasing US debt. This in turn affects our Federal taxes as well as our interest rates. We all pay higher taxes and interest rates because of these great low prices. As Homer would say: \’Doh!\’\”
The relationship between high taxes and trade imbalance is inverse from what you allege. We cut taxes a few years ago and spurred the trade imbalance because we had more money to buy stuff from China et al. And interest rate increases are designed to cool the economy to prevent inflation and manage the money supply. This is not a result of trade imbalance, but of a supercharged economy. By the way, I have a trade imbalance with every store in my neighborhood. They never give me any money except to make change.
You said: \”Same thing with petroleum prices–they\’re not $1 to $3 dollars a gallon. They\’re that plus the projection of American military force throughout the world. Think about how much better and how much more worthy a job the US military would be able to do without having to secure \’our oil\’ under \’their sand\’ so we can drive our obscene gas hogs.\”
Blah blah blah. Pure liberal guilt. If not for us that oil would still be under their stinking sand. What is the US military supposed to do but protect US interests? And why are you changing the subject?
You said: \”It\’s all a balloon–push in here, it goes out there. Markets are great. Unregulated markets produce all this mess. Regulated markets are a key feature of Western societies. Time for the pendulum to swing back some.\”
Your analogy reflects belief in a zero sum economy, which is claptrap. There is not a finite sum of wealth in the world as if when I get rich it hurts you. Wealth has increased in this century to the degree that governments keep their hands off of economies. You might have noticed that Red China unregulated its economy and it exploded. You noticed, right?
You said: \”Sure not every deail of this answer is correct–\”
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
\”but I\’m trying to keep informed instead of watching Fox News or the latest CNN Nancy Grace crime scandal or sitcoms…you know, what many if most American used to do.\”
You aren\’t doing a very good job of it, son.
\”Enjoy your next trip to Walmart and the gas pump–hey they\’ve got those too! Save! Save! Save! Pay! Pay! Pay!\”
The person posing as Michael Moore needs some basics of education: either/or thinking and partisan thinking have no utility in addressing and solving political issues including market regulation issues.
The simple minded \”mission accomplished\” and \”you\’re either with us or against us\” thinking so recently espoused by the Bush Bots and Rove Bots with Cheney pulling the strings from his blackout zone are already part of a sullied past. W broke the US and damaged its military with thinking like this and now Daddy\’s (George H. W. XLI)people (the IRaq study group) have said we all need to start thinking more broadly, more critically and more practically. Go back to the early 2000\’s, caveman and reflect. Learn to think and just jerk various body parts that have learned to move even without strings on them anymore. The uneducated mind is Rove\’s best friend.
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We use to call it \”key man\” insurance. Now the loopy judge calls this a uninsurable interest situation.
Good grief. Stupid judge and greedy friggin attorneys.
What did you expect? The suit was against Wal-Mart, which is prima facie guilty of everything.
You should really try not jumping to conclusions. No one said \”Key man\” coverage is not okay, but these employees were not key employees, they were clerks and cashiers. Companies can still insure the higher ups, it\’s just that WalMart or any other business doesn\’t have an insurable interest in their minimum wage, expendible work force, who were the ones covered under these policies.
So, Wal-Mart pays the life insurance premiums and the lawyers walk away with 1.7 million.
Why didn\’t mom make me go to law school? Can I sue her?
Sure, while we are at it we can sue both sets of your grandparents for having your parents. Let\’s also include the priest that married your parents in the lawsuit and the manufacturer of the suit and wedding gown that they wore on thier wedding day…
And if you say they bought thier wedding clothes at Walmart, we\’ll throw in a complementary steak knife set…
The issue at hand is fallout from so-called \”dead janitor\” or \”dead peasant\” life insurance programs (COLI plans). The name is not unfair. These were programs designed for large companies as a tax-minimization/evasion plan, and the IRS has responded vigorously with prosecution in many cases to end such plans and/or recover back taxes. Still, many plans have ended, many continue. They are by now just plain illegal in many jurisdictions.
One risk of willful continuance of a COLI plan is the sort of lawsuit at hand.
The Oklahoma courts have ruled these plans violate public policy based on the insured interest aspect and so Walmart must pay. Good.
As for Walmart being blamed for everything–this is not a completely irrational response. Walmart first destroyed the local Mom and Pop stores throughout rural and small town America. They then destroyed a large part of America\’s manufacturing capacity by aggressively forcing vendors to switch plants to China. They have bankrupted many small manufacturers and vendors through aggressive pricing demands as well as contracts and risk management recoveries. (If you think you are lucky to have a big Walmart contract as a vendor, you may have just arranged your own business failure in a few years).
Walmart also does not provide employee benefits to most of its workforce so it is indirectly taxing all of us when these uninsured have to use the public clinics and hospitals. Those Walmart \”low prices\” are in substantial part an illusion–Walmart is dumping on us by not providing benefits and by destroying so much of the taxable base within our economy–such as would come from small stores, distributors and manufacturers. Further, Walmart\’s actions have led to a large trade imbalance and increasing US debt. This in turn affects our Federal taxes as well as our interest rates. We all pay higher taxes and interest rates because of these great low prices. As Homer would say: \”Doh!\”
Same thing with petroleum prices–they\’re not $1 to $3 dollars a gallon. They\’re that plus the projection of American military force throughout the world. Think about how much better and how much more worthy a job the US military would be able to do without having to secure \”our oil\” under \”their sand\” so we can drive our obscene gas hogs.
It\’s all a balloon–push in here, it goes out there. Markets are great. Unregulated markets produce all this mess. Regulated markets are a key feature of Western societies. Time for the pendulum to swing back some.
Sure not every deail of this answer is correct–but I\’m trying to keep informed instead of watching Fox News or the latest CNN Nancy Grace crime scandal or sitcoms…you know, what many if most American used to do.
Enjoy your next trip to Walmart and the gas pump–hey they\’ve got those too! Save! Save! Save! Pay! Pay! Pay!
* Forces its own workers to labor \”off the clock\” without pay
* Uses overseas sweatshop labor to manufacture its corporate brand clothing
* Sells knock-off and counterfeit merchandise that misleads and confuses its customers
* Destroys acres of environmentally sensitive lands to build new Wal-Marts, close to existing Wal-Marts that will be closed
* Has eliminated all competition in many towns across the U.S. by illegally lowering prices below wholesale
* Has forced the movement of thousands of manufacturing jobs out of the U.S.
* Calls \”full-time\” 28 hours per week and pays wages so low that many of its employees qualify — and accept — welfare payments
* Demands millions of dollars in tax breaks to locate in communities all over the U.S., while it earns billions of dollars in profits.
Source: The Case Against WalMart by Al Norman
PS: also discriminates against women – one of the largest class action lawsuits ever!
The previous message was brought to you by your wonderful Democratic Party. Now you know that you are the cause of all of the problems in the world. If you would just live in a tent and ride a bicycle, the world would be a better place.
Your Pal,
Michael Moore
Your point is well-taken regarding \”dead janitor\” policies. Someone else had remarked that these were key man policies which I took as an informed response.
However, you said: \”As for Walmart being blamed for everything–this is not a completely irrational response. Walmart first destroyed the local Mom and Pop stores throughout rural and small town America.\”
Should Henry Ford be blamed for putting buggy whip makers out of business? If mom and pop hardware stores want to charge more for hammers and nails than Wal-Mart, am I obligated to pay more?
Sam Walton put his stores in rural areas where companies like Sears and Wards would not go. He tapped a market that was there to be tapped (and eager not to have to drive an hour to shop), assuming the risk and expense on his own, and got rich. Is that not the American way – build a better mouse trap?
You said: \”They then destroyed a large part of America\’s manufacturing capacity by aggressively forcing vendors to switch plants to China.\”
We have basically zero unemployment. If this statement were true, we would have much higher unemployment. Our economy was being referred to as \”post industrial\” back in the \’70\’s when e.g. steel mills were closing and moving to Japan and Korea, which I don\’t think Wal-Mart had anything to do with.
You said: \”They have bankrupted many small manufacturers and vendors through aggressive pricing demands as well as contracts and risk management recoveries. (If you think you are lucky to have a big Walmart contract as a vendor, you may have just arranged your own business failure in a few years).\”
As with Vlassic, but A.) no one had a gun to anyone\’s head, and B.) it was not Wal-Mart\’s intention to put suppliers out of business, was it? How would that have benefited Wal-Mart? Will they be happy to have suppliers that control monopolies in goods?
You said: \”Walmart also does not provide employee benefits to most of its workforce so it is indirectly taxing all of us when these uninsured have to use the public clinics and hospitals.\”
False on several levels. First, it is not the duty of any employer to provide health benefits. Second, most Wal-Mart employees are part-timers AND have health insurance through a family member such as a parent or spouse, while the others have insurance through Wal-Mart. Third, \”indirectly taxing all of us\” is baloney since, again, no employer has the innate duty to insure employees, so no employer can transfer a duty it does not have, and finally, it is the proliferation of government insurance programs that have caused the over-regulation of, and hyper-demand for, health services that have combined to drive up health costs. I would go so far as to say that employer-provided health insurance has largely contributed to spiraling health care costs as well. It\’s supply and demand, you know, and when the demand outstrips the supply we have spiraling costs, sometimes followed by shortages.
You said: \”Those Walmart \’low prices\’ are in substantial part an illusion–Walmart is dumping on us by not providing benefits and by destroying so much of the taxable base within our economy–such as would come from small stores, distributors and manufacturers.\”
Wrong for the same reasons cited above, plus, do inefficient businesses result in higher government revenues? If it did, should we encourage inefficiency? Some economists credit Wal-Mart with helping to suppress inflation. If that is even remotely true, then at what cost do we patronize inefficient business?
You said: \”Further, Walmart\’s actions have led to a large trade imbalance and increasing US debt. This in turn affects our Federal taxes as well as our interest rates. We all pay higher taxes and interest rates because of these great low prices. As Homer would say: \’Doh!\’\”
The relationship between high taxes and trade imbalance is inverse from what you allege. We cut taxes a few years ago and spurred the trade imbalance because we had more money to buy stuff from China et al. And interest rate increases are designed to cool the economy to prevent inflation and manage the money supply. This is not a result of trade imbalance, but of a supercharged economy. By the way, I have a trade imbalance with every store in my neighborhood. They never give me any money except to make change.
You said: \”Same thing with petroleum prices–they\’re not $1 to $3 dollars a gallon. They\’re that plus the projection of American military force throughout the world. Think about how much better and how much more worthy a job the US military would be able to do without having to secure \’our oil\’ under \’their sand\’ so we can drive our obscene gas hogs.\”
Blah blah blah. Pure liberal guilt. If not for us that oil would still be under their stinking sand. What is the US military supposed to do but protect US interests? And why are you changing the subject?
You said: \”It\’s all a balloon–push in here, it goes out there. Markets are great. Unregulated markets produce all this mess. Regulated markets are a key feature of Western societies. Time for the pendulum to swing back some.\”
Your analogy reflects belief in a zero sum economy, which is claptrap. There is not a finite sum of wealth in the world as if when I get rich it hurts you. Wealth has increased in this century to the degree that governments keep their hands off of economies. You might have noticed that Red China unregulated its economy and it exploded. You noticed, right?
You said: \”Sure not every deail of this answer is correct–\”
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
\”but I\’m trying to keep informed instead of watching Fox News or the latest CNN Nancy Grace crime scandal or sitcoms…you know, what many if most American used to do.\”
You aren\’t doing a very good job of it, son.
\”Enjoy your next trip to Walmart and the gas pump–hey they\’ve got those too! Save! Save! Save! Pay! Pay! Pay!\”
Hey hey,
Ho ho,
Capitalism\’s
Got to go!
The person posing as Michael Moore needs some basics of education: either/or thinking and partisan thinking have no utility in addressing and solving political issues including market regulation issues.
The simple minded \”mission accomplished\” and \”you\’re either with us or against us\” thinking so recently espoused by the Bush Bots and Rove Bots with Cheney pulling the strings from his blackout zone are already part of a sullied past. W broke the US and damaged its military with thinking like this and now Daddy\’s (George H. W. XLI)people (the IRaq study group) have said we all need to start thinking more broadly, more critically and more practically. Go back to the early 2000\’s, caveman and reflect. Learn to think and just jerk various body parts that have learned to move even without strings on them anymore. The uneducated mind is Rove\’s best friend.